Unintentional Prejudice in Fiction

[Nerds_feather]

I think those Lovecraft quotes demonstrate, quite clearly, that he feared interracial coupling precisely because he saw non-whites (and Jews) as inferior. And biologically inferior at that. This is what the term racism emerged to describe. Lovecraft even called himself a racist, and was proud of it. He was a card-carrying racist.

Now, of course, "race" itself is a pseudoscientific concept and a social construct, an imposition of arbitrary categories based on genetically insignificant markers. It is, of course, real in its effects, and in the US, for example, structures a lot of cultural and socio-economic outcomes. But in the end, it's some BS invented in the 19th century to justify colonialism.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Hence why discussing "race" unwittingly promotes the fallacy of humanity being "many races", and why it's better to speak of "prejudice", IMO.

 

[Karn Maeshalanadae]

Not only that, but the term "racism" is really just starting to become a blanket term for all kinds of prejudice. The term itself has nothing to do with sexism, ageism, or religious or orientation prejudice, yet is the term most commonly used to describe someone engaging in deragotory behavior. Ageism, for example, is a term almost never seen, yet is a behavior that occurs in great frequency.

 

[Kissmequick]

Ageism, for example, is a term almost never seen, yet is a behavior that occurs in great frequency.

Name me five good older characters in fantasy(we'll say..over fifty. Immortal doesn't count)

Granny Weatherwax
Nanny Ogg
Vetinari?
...

???

Strange how the only ones I can think of are from one author.

 

[Nerds_feather]

Name me five good older characters in fantasy(we'll say..over fifty. Immortal doesn't count)

Granny Weatherwax
Nanny Ogg
Vetinari?
...

???

Strange how the only ones I can think of are from one author.

Does Gandalf count?

One I liked that's more recent is Ato Tesefahun in Elizabeth Bear's Eternal Sky trilogy, who is protagonist Re Temur's grandfather.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

Kimmi in the Time Traveller's Wife.
The Granny in Ocean at the End of the Lane.

(Can we have Sci fi?)

Aral Vorkosigan in the Miles books
Colonel Graff in Ender's Game?

 

[Mouse]

The Granny in Ocean at the End of the Lane.

Definitely. Plus, Lady Olenna in ASoIaF. Asriel in HDM. Lord William in The Death Collector. Pretty much all the MCs in The Possessions of Doctor Forrest (the whole story is about age, really). Dumbledore. The old couple who raise the boy in The Graveyard Book...

That's all I can think of right now. There's someone at the back of my mind, but I can't remember who.

 

[svalbard]

David Gemmell's Druss.

 

[Kissmequick]

And compare those few to the legions of younger protags (and at least some of those are there just as mentors for the protag, rather than in their own right).

Not that I've done much better as yet though I have this book in the works...

I think it is a hanggover from the "fantasy as coming of age story". But people of any age could have an adventure...

 

[johnnyjet]

Lazarus Long
Dorian Gray (or his portrait)

 

[Mouse]

Bilbo Baggins. He has an adventure.

I have old dudes in my stuff. There is one on the tip of my tongue though and it's bothering me now because I can't remember! It's an old character and they're the MC and they do stuff.

 

[AnyaKimlin]

Name me five good older characters in fantasy(we'll say..over fifty. Immortal doesn't count)

Granny Weatherwax
Nanny Ogg
Vetinari?
...

???

Strange how the only ones I can think of are from one author.

There are quite a few in Chronicles of Narnia beginning with the Professor in Lion, Witch and the Wardrobe.

Dumbledore? McGonagall? I know they are immortalish but they feel older than say Hagrid.

For Enid Blyton there is The Washer Woman, Saucepanman and Moonface.

My brain isn't up to thinking about grown up books.

I do know my urban fantasy with a sixty eight year old character attracted a mix of enthusiasm and eye rolling. (Buffy with an old guy) The latter came mostly from published authors.

 

[Coolhand]

Ser Barristen Selmy from aSoIaF seems to be pretty bad-ass for an old guy, though granted he's a minor character. I've only read Game of Thrones, so maybe he plays a greater role later on.

Lamb from Red Country is actually a pretty good example of a very well written and complex older main character who gives the younger protagonists more than a run for their money (I think he's in his 50's but I could be wrong). The narrative does a very nice job of portraying a man on the downslope of his life, trying desperately to atone for and outrun the consequences of being "bad-ass" as a younger man.

Does Darth Vader count from EP 4,5 and 6? Iconic cyborg-wizard-pensioner!

 

[Khayos]

Sorry to jump in with a new (but still relatable) topic. But, without stirring arguments, I'm interested on people's opinions on something I saw a while aback. It was a piece of slam poetry a Chinese girl had performed on YouTube named "Dear J.K Rowling." The topic was about Cho Chang and how stereotypical a character she was, pointing out that both Cho and Chang were Korean surnames and how unfair it was that she appeared to be looking for her white prince to save her (Harry.) To be fair, the girl made a very strong argument in her piece and at first I suddenly felt very indignant towards J.K Rowing. I then read the comments section where very good arguments were expressed and I soon concluded that in my opinion, it is certainly not an authors job to go out of their way to be overly diverse in their story if it is unrealistic or uncharcteristic of the setting, especially in sci-fi or fantasy. Also, I'd like to make a point due to the earlier posts on this thread... These are just my personal opinions and I really do not want to argue, I'm just interested in yours!

Also, I think in mainstream writing, "younger" protragonists can sometimes be used as a selling point, much like in other industries, but I've read plenty of books with very strong older characters, though they may not be central.

 

[ratsy]

Reading Hobb and Chade comes to mind as a good older character

 

[AnyaKimlin]

Do the books actually give Cho and Chang's nationality anywhere?

 

[Nerds_feather]

Sorry to jump in with a new (but still relatable) topic. But, without stirring arguments, I'm interested on people's opinions on something I saw a while aback. It was a piece of slam poetry a Chinese girl had performed on YouTube named "Dear J.K Rowling." The topic was about Cho Chang and how stereotypical a character she was, pointing out that both Cho and Chang were Korean surnames and how unfair it was that she appeared to be looking for her white prince to save her (Harry.) To be fair, the girl made a very strong argument in her piece and at first I suddenly felt very indignant towards J.K Rowing. I then read the comments section where very good arguments were expressed and I soon concluded that in my opinion, it is certainly not an authors job to go out of their way to be overly diverse in their story if it is unrealistic or uncharcteristic of the setting, especially in sci-fi or fantasy. Also, I'd like to make a point due to the earlier posts on this thread... These are just my personal opinions and I really do not want to argue, I'm just interested in yours!

That's an interesting anecdote, and the fact is I've never read any HP books. But assuming that her critiques are on the mark, I would have to ask...

What would be lost by making "Cho Chang" Korean, or giving the character an authentic Chinese name? Or making the characters a bit more three-dimensional and, thus, less "stereotypically Chinese?" What would be unrealistic about that?

I doubt JK Rowling sat down to write one day and said "I'm going to make a cardboard Chinese stereotype characters, that sounds like fun!" Rather, I'd guess she just didn't give it all that much thought, and didn't ask anyone of Chinese (or Korean) heritage what they thought about it.

This is sort of what I've been getting at the whole time in this thread: most prejudice in SF/F is probably unintentional, but from the perspective of someone implicated in it (in this case, a person of Chinese extraction), it sucks. If you're not implicated in it, you may never even think about it. Mad TV did a pretty funny parody of this kind of thing a few years ago.

I think this is a case for better and more beta reading.

 

[alchemist]

Do the books actually give Cho and Chang's nationality anywhere?

And what's wrong with her fancying a white boy? I thought that wouldn't be stereotypical

(Disclaimer: I didn't read THAT HP book)

 

[Nerds_feather]

And what's wrong with her fancying a white boy? I thought that wouldn't be stereotypical

(Disclaimer: I didn't read THAT HP book)

I didn't read the book either, so I can't say whether the story is handled well or not. But I'm guessing, based on the information at hand, that it's "demure Asian woman saved by valiant white prince," which would be a trope.

But again, I didn't read it--it might not be tropey at all, for all I know.

 

[Kissmequick]

This is sort of what I've been getting at the whole time in this thread: most prejudice in SF/F is probably unintentional, but from the perspective of someone implicated in it (in this case, a person of Chinese extraction), it sucks. If you're not implicated in it, you may never even think about it.

I once sent a book to a US beta and got back "You know, what with the Confederacy you have and the magically mind controlled slaves...you might want to rename that. It kind of has connotations here..."

Never occurred to me until then, but ofc once she said it, obvious. And I think most people will assume good intentions unless a) it's so in your face as to be obvious or b) it's something they've come across so often before, they want to scream. Which isn't this one author's fault, but....


And yeah, there are the not most people. The ones who will have a hissy fit over not much at all. But they are pretty rare tbh.

I think if you at least make the attempt to have, shall we say, manners? Then it'll show. Mostly. And if it doesn't, well then, maybe I should have done better. Or maybe a bit of flack is worth it, or you take a ddep breath and realise not everyone will get the point (if it's intentional). But ofc the better you write, the more people will get the point. And if it's unintentional, well, best to own up, I think. "Hey, my bad, won't happen again" shows that it was a mis-step. Defensiveness...doesn't.