I, Sansa?

JoanDrake

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Real simple question but it's a good defense to her being seen as a "potted plant". The Westerosi court certainly has many points of similarity to the Julio-Claudians,


Does anyone think that she might end up being the actual writer of all this once we get to the end? Assuming a place like Irulan in Dune or the real Princess Irene in Crusader Byzantium? Seemingly peripheral women characters who morphed into the most insightful historians of a very significant era?
 
I actually had this discussion with a group of friends recently. The conclusion, a tentative one mind you, we came to was that Sansa will end up as the Cersei of the Starks, except more capable and far more ruthless.
 
I've always believed Sansa has much more potential than the majority of the fandom credit her for. Yes, in AGOT she was in love with Joffrey (as much as an eleven year old can be, at any rate) but why do we blame her for being a naive girl, when she's been born into a world where that is valued and encouraged? Arya is the exception, not the rule.
The fact is, is that after AGOT, Sansa becomes one of the smartest characters. She's seen her father die, he sister disappear, all her friends in King's Landing gone, but she still manages to pretend to love and revere the Lannisters and Joffrey. What normal eleven year old has ever done that? I think we blame Sansa for being a teenage girl, when that's exactly what she is. She can't help it. She's in a dire situation and she's doing the absolute best she can, and doing a darn well good job of it.
I firmly believe that her story turning the way it is, she is going to become a powerhouse player of the game of thrones.

Whether the people who think she is a potted plant agree with me or not, I think Sansa is way too important to ignore, as so many do.
 
Those that don't see Sansa's potential amuse me. Arya and Sansa were both of an impressionable age when the story began, a learning age where you quickly decide your definition of right and wrong, what crap you'll endure and what you do and don't admire.
Currently in the protective guidance of Littlefinger, and all that cunning, Sansa's had a sample of everything vile you don't want to live through, any time soon she will start kicking back. For good or bad.
It's the quiet ones you gotta watch after all ;)
 
Molly, she's also had a perfect lesson in how nice guys end up losing.

I wouldn't be disgruntled if she ended up being a Livia-like figure. Can't remember much of what she's done recently in the books, though.
 
I have little doubt she'll end up in a very high position, maybe in charge of everything. I was just speculating on how. It seems her character is very close to Claudius and I wonder if that's how Martin will treat her in the end


That is, of course, assuming she survives.
 
I'm still holding a candle for my Aegon x Sansa ruling Westeros ending. shhhh Don't question it. Just go with it. ;D
 
I kind of thought her main role was to betray her father and then just serve as a POV on what happens in king's landing. I was really surprised her line lasted through all books, because none of her actions (after the betrayal) have had any impact on the story ;\
 
I kind of thought her main role was to betray her father and then just serve as a POV on what happens in king's landing. I was really surprised her line lasted through all books, because none of her actions (after the betrayal) have had any impact on the story ;\

(spoilers)

A passive-aggressive character like Sansa is actually just as important as the characters that engage in clear and direct actions. As one of two remaining Stark sisters that fact alone has had a huge impact on the psyche of the story. She and her sister Arya were the reason behind Catelyn's back door deals that eventually lost her son vital political support. Sansa's POV also allowed GRRM to show another angle to Joffrey's sinister behaviour and allowed him to reveal the real mastermind behind the latter's assassination.

Not all characters can impact the story, sometimes you need the story to impact the characters, and that's exactly the role of Sansa for most of the books, with the death of her father, brother, mother, destruction of her homeland, etc. For many of us she is symbolic of Winterfell and the North because the three brothers (Jon, Bran, Rick) and the one sister (Arya) are so far removed and caught up in their own destinies that only Sansa's path seems to be leading back to the seat of Winterfell as a ruler or consort.
 
(spoilers)

A passive-aggressive character like Sansa is actually just as important as the characters that engage in clear and direct actions.

An interesting thing to note is that while passive-aggressive is its own type of behavior, there are two terms at play. Passive and aggressive. Sansa has always been very passive. Things happen to her, not because of her (with the obvious exception of her father's death).

She's been beaten, shamed, publicly humiliated (and assaulted) by the people in whose care she was. This all happened to her. She did nothing to prompt any of these things. She likewise was very passive in being forced to marry Tyrion, though at that point she had learned that rebelling got her beaten/shamed, etc., which really wasn't worth it. She sucked it up.

Interesting thing, "sucking it up." Sucking it up is a choice. One can choose to complain, rebel, do nothing. One could make the argument that she did nothing, but I don't agree with that. She hated the idea of being married to "the Imp," but yet she still did everything she was supposed to to the utmost of her ability. Yes, that is part of that was the philosophy "courtesy is a lady's armor" is, which is still a choice, especially for someone so beaten down.

While from a story standpoint she's been passive-aggressive, we're finally starting to see Sansa, as a character, becoming at the very least assertive. She's tired of being a pawn to be manipulated by others. What she doesn't know is that by surrounding herself in "lady's armor," she was a silent observer, and she's learned a lot more than she herself realizes. This is evident with how quick she's able to pick up on Littlefinger's 'riddle' of Harry the Heir. Yes, it takes her a moment, but she does figure it out. Under Littlefinger's guidance and with her own observations at court, she's poised to become not just a pawn but a player.

I agree with svalbard:

Sansa will end up as the Cersei of the Starks, except more capable and far more ruthless.

She's lost too much and has made the decision to not lose any more. Sansa is going to claw, scratch, and fight as viciously as is needed to ensure she is no longer a victim. She has the power to actively play (and perhaps win) the Game of Thrones within her, she just needs a little more time to figure out how best to enter the fray.
 
An interesting thing to note is that while passive-aggressive is its own type of behavior, there are two terms at play. Passive and aggressive. Sansa has always been very passive. Things happen to her, not because of her (with the obvious exception of her father's death).

She's been beaten, shamed, publicly humiliated (and assaulted) by the people in whose care she was. This all happened to her. She did nothing to prompt any of these things. She likewise was very passive in being forced to marry Tyrion, though at that point she had learned that rebelling got her beaten/shamed, etc., which really wasn't worth it. She sucked it up.

Interesting thing, "sucking it up." Sucking it up is a choice. One can choose to complain, rebel, do nothing. One could make the argument that she did nothing, but I don't agree with that. She hated the idea of being married to "the Imp," but yet she still did everything she was supposed to to the utmost of her ability. Yes, that is part of that was the philosophy "courtesy is a lady's armor" is, which is still a choice, especially for someone so beaten down.

While from a story standpoint she's been passive-aggressive, we're finally starting to see Sansa, as a character, becoming at the very least assertive. She's tired of being a pawn to be manipulated by others. What she doesn't know is that by surrounding herself in "lady's armor," she was a silent observer, and she's learned a lot more than she herself realizes. This is evident with how quick she's able to pick up on Littlefinger's 'riddle' of Harry the Heir. Yes, it takes her a moment, but she does figure it out. Under Littlefinger's guidance and with her own observations at court, she's poised to become not just a pawn but a player.

I agree with svalbard:



She's lost too much and has made the decision to not lose any more. Sansa is going to claw, scratch, and fight as viciously as is needed to ensure she is no longer a victim. She has the power to actively play (and perhaps win) the Game of Thrones within her, she just needs a little more time to figure out how best to enter the fray.

I completely agree with this. All the "lady's armour" stuff is absolutely spot on. The power behind the throne is often the queen/mistress... because she's learned all the tricks of court by playing "nice" and knows how to "play" the men around her and the women. Sansa is becoming just such a woman.

By the time Sansa is a woman grown, she will indeed be the Cercei of the Starks. And significantly more effective at it, because she's not an erratic, incestuous madwoman.

Winter is Coming after all, and Starks always endure, if not flourish, in the Winter. Sansa will emerge as the most dangerous woman in Westeros. And perhaps it's most powerful.
 
I completely agree with this. All the "lady's armour" stuff is absolutely spot on. The power behind the throne is often the queen/mistress... because she's learned all the tricks of court by playing "nice" and knows how to "play" the men around her and the women. Sansa is becoming just such a woman.

By the time Sansa is a woman grown, she will indeed be the Cercei of the Starks. And significantly more effective at it, because she's not an erratic, incestuous madwoman.

Winter is Coming after all, and Starks always endure, if not flourish, in the Winter. Sansa will emerge as the most dangerous woman in Westeros. And perhaps it's most powerful.

My gut revolts at the term "The Cersei of the Starks". especially when you say she will be like Cersei, but not at all like Cersei. (erratic, incestuous, madwoman) Can't she instead be... The Asha of the starks? A strong, independant and ambitious woman? I guess Asha is too scrappy... Maybe she can be the Catelyn of the starks... but I guess Catelyn is the Catelyn of the starks. I get what your saying, Sansa will be a strong, independant, politically minded and politically influential person with strong royal ties. I just don't like the idea of anyone being a second Cersei, one Cersei is far too many.

I think the reason most people dislike Sansa so much (apart from betraying Ned) is because we see her in comparison to Arya. Arya is younger but proved to be more intuitive (she hates Cersei and Joffrey from day one) and strong willed. I think it would be easier to forgive Sansa's Nievity if it weren't for her younger sister being so dramatically different. But as Ashara said a few posts back, Arya is the exception not the rule and Sansa's actions are pretty understandable. Even her nievity is Neds fault. he should have tried explaining things to Sansa and given more time to her so she would understand.

I don't hate Sansa as a character, but I do hate almost all of her chapters in the first 2 books.
 
Arsten, YES! I totally hate the term "Cersei of the Starks," but it's more of a concept than an actual thing.

I also agree with you completely that Sansa gets a bum rap because she is so often compared to Arya. Your point that Arya is the exception and not the rule is also very correct. Arya never had any designs on being a lady and thus was not interested in "lady things." She was more comfortable with a sword in her hand than needlework. The other thing to keep in mind is the different mindset between the two, not just their temperaments.

As Catelyn ruminates, Arya is "Ned's daughter." She's a true Stark Maiden of the north, compared often to her deceased Aunt Lyanna, who was known as both a great beauty and very wild. Lyanna, as we know through Meera's tale, was more than capable of holding her own with the boys.

Sansa on the other hand, she's a mama's girl. She takes after Catelyn. Sansa, initially, does not worship the Old Gods but the New. She worships the Seven in the sept built by her father for her mother. Sansa, being a mama's girl, also adheres, initially, to the Tully words "Family, Duty, Honor," and wants very much to emulate Catelyn, whom she holds as the ideal lady (until she meets Cersei, before things go badly in KL).

Sansa's naivety is in large part Ned's fault. So what that they were in the North, cut off from the rest of the Westeros? Ned knew that, being so high ranking a noble family that chances were very high Sansa would be married to someone in the south. While perhaps not able to directly expose her to more southern culture, he should have at least educated her. Additionally, Catelyn notices Sansa's rather whimsical approach to life and literally does nothing to educate her daughter that life isn't remotely close to what the poets make it out to be. Both of Sansa's parents are guilty of wanting their child to remain a child, knowing full well that Sansa, even more so than Arya, being their first daughter, would ultimately end up somewhere in the south, where she would not be sheltered. They both should have sat down with her and had a conversation with her somewhere along the line, especially Ned in KL. Telling her "Oh, it's dangerous here," without any further information? That's the equivalent of telling your kid "The boogeyman is out there, don't go out," which any intelligent child isn't going to buy. If he had, for even a moment, invested the time in treating Sansa as an intelligent child, well...

Going back to Arya, her being a daughter of the North, her insights are keener than Sansa's. We also know that Arya is far more interested with things that are, not things that could be. Arya's grown up on the same songs as Sansa and her northern blood knows it's all crap. Sansa is much more the stereotypical little girl who believes in fairies, unicorns, rainbows and true love. She was an optimist until reality quite literally beat it out of her.

I used to dislike Sansa in the books, but I so often found myself playing devil's advocate to those who really hated her, I was eventually bought over by my own arguments. Until AFFC, Sansa is a poor, sad, abused girl who loses everything she holds dear. Finally, once safely out of Lannister reach in the Eyrie, she's able to start applying the brutal lessons learned at Court.

She may have started out whimsical and naive, but experience has transformed her. She started out yearning for the South, but her Northern blood has quickened within her, and she's finding strength and power she never knew she had.
 
Your point that Arya is the exception and not the rule is also very correct.

Credit where credit is due, that point belongs to Ashara, a few posts back. I was simply echoing it.

Sansa actually gets pretty interesting later in the series, post AFFC. it's just too bad it takes her so long to learn her lessons. Even after Ned is Beheaded, when she realizes that Joffrey is a monster, she still trusts Cersei and doesn't see her for what she is. but it takes a long time to unlearn everything you have ever been taught.
 
One thing. The only one where I've read both the book and seen the show is the first one and I must have missed the part where Sansa betrays Ned. Nor can I see how it should matter really, as there is nearly a half chapter where Ned himself betrays Ned to Cersei quite handily. He explains later that he did it to give Cersei a chance to protect her children, no mention of Sansa at all, what did I miss?
 
One thing. The only one where I've read both the book and seen the show is the first one and I must have missed the part where Sansa betrays Ned. Nor can I see how it should matter really, as there is nearly a half chapter where Ned himself betrays Ned to Cersei quite handily. He explains later that he did it to give Cersei a chance to protect her children, no mention of Sansa at all, what did I miss?

Sansa told Cersei about Ned's plans of taking her and Arya out of KL making Cersei go for kill ASAP.
 
I actually had this discussion with a group of friends recently. The conclusion, a tentative one mind you, we came to was that Sansa will end up as the Cersei of the Starks, except more capable and far more ruthless.

Yes, I fear another generation will come that will hate Sansa as much as we have hated Cersei :)
 
Sansa told Cersei about Ned's plans of taking her and Arya out of KL making Cersei go for kill ASAP.

OIC, I missed that in the book, but can you blame Sansa? At this point she trusts Cersei, and, in fact, loves Joffrey who is her fiancée. Can she be blamed for not realizing Cersei is a sociopath, Joffrey a sadist and her father an idiot?

Besides, DID Cersei go for the kill on Sansa's word? As I recall, (and this may be from the show and not the book) Cersei was going to let Ned go until he tried to bring up this un-witnessed letter he had from Robert's deathbed which made himself regent. Cersei was defending against what was, by all logic, a coup by the Hand to take the throne. What did Sansa have to do with that?
 
Robert declares Ned regent until his son comes of age though Ned changes this will to say heir. Renley asks him to take the princes to secure this regency control, and offers a hundred swordsmen to help. Ned doesn't and insteads sends a letter to Stannis to take over. He also asks Littlefinger to help him out with his plans by bringing the City Watch to keep Cersei's people in check. Littlefinger doesn't go for that. Perhaps with his future Lord of the Eyrie plan in mind.
So apart from not wanting to be regent and not taking Renley's help it was telling Littlefinger of what his plan was that was his rather foolish mistake.
 
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OIC, I missed that in the book, but can you blame Sansa? At this point she trusts Cersei, and, in fact, loves Joffrey who is her fiancée. Can she be blamed for not realizing Cersei is a sociopath, Joffrey a sadist and her father an idiot?

Besides, DID Cersei go for the kill on Sansa's word? As I recall, (and this may be from the show and not the book) Cersei was going to let Ned go until he tried to bring up this un-witnessed letter he had from Robert's deathbed which made himself regent. Cersei was defending against what was, by all logic, a coup by the Hand to take the throne. What did Sansa have to do with that?

I don't actually blame Sansa for it. She was far too politically inept to know what she was doing. It would be akin to blaming a child for burning something because it didn't know that is what fire does.

Attack on Ned's household happened at the same time as Ned's visitation to the Throne room. TBH, Cersei also had other sources, but didn't know what Ned planned with Arya and Sansa. Sansa telling her of her father's plans for her and Arya more impacted the fact that Cersei managed to get a hold of Sansa and the way things played out with Arya.
 

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