Howard or Tolkien, Which of them Had The Greatest Impact On Modern Fantasy ?

[Vince W]

Conan for All his ferociousness was both smart and practical.

Piratical. It's piratical.

 

[BAYLOR]

Piratical. It's piratical.

Yes , Conan was a pirate too and, he was very good at it.

 

[KGeo777]

Tower of the Elephant is my favorite Conan story, but I find his Solomon Kane stories to be more memorable.

Conan is a continuation of a type of Western character dating back to Beowulf, except he is not the defender of the village, but the wandering hero. He's not seeking to get back home like Odysseus (not as smart either).
I think the appeal of Conan is that trace of traditional warrior adventurer. He's the independent wild man, not shackled by modern laws or rules.
The world-building element may be another appeal--it's not rooted in real history yet feels more grounded to me than Middle Earth which is really far out (or under).
Even Lovecraft has a "new mythology" element in his work too.

Tolkien, on the other hand--elves and dragons also have a long history too-so we don't know how much of the appeal is just a continuation of that pagan tradition (which never goes away).

His work does not focus on a strong warrior character like REH did so it's a different type of sub-genre in my view.
I liked the Hobbit but just could not get into LOTR.
I prefer fantasy rooted in history-and REH provided that.

But, in the conclusion, since the warrior hero and the elves/dragon/black knight go back so far in Western literature, are either of them really that influential on their own, or just carrying the torch of these ancient story elements to the present in a new wrapper?

 

[hitmouse]

They are both influential in their own rights, and I dont really care which is more so. There is a limited stock of plots and character archetypes which have been used since time immemorial. I suspect JRR might have used these more deliberately than REH.

I think it is a stretch to argue that either Conan or LOTR are rooted in history.

 

[KGeo777]

I think it is a stretch to argue that either Conan or LOTR are rooted in history.

REH based his Hyborian world on historical parallels.
Khitai was China for example. Picts, Kothians, they all had their real world reference.
Middle Earth was much further removed from that kind of association with real life history.

 

[BAYLOR]

REH based his Hyborian world on historical parallels.
Khitai was China for example. Picts, Kothians, they all had their real world reference.
Middle Earth was much further removed from that kind of association with real life history.

I rather liked Howard's Hyborian Age , a bit more then Tolkien's Middle Earth.

 

[Cathbad]

Howard's world was much more believable.

That's why I like Tolkien's better...

 

[hitmouse]

REH based his Hyborian world on historical parallels.
Khitai was China for example. Picts, Kothians, they all had their real world reference.
Middle Earth was much further removed from that kind of association with real life history.

Yes, but basing characters and civilisations on crude stereotypes ( a common device) does not, in itself, make something historic. Neither does overlaying maps of hyperboria and Europe/Med/Levant.
One can equally argue that Gandalf is Merlin and the Shire is the British Midlands, and that Hobbits are little Englanders.

 

[KGeo777]

Yes, but basing characters and civilisations on crude stereotypes ( a common device) does not, in itself, make something historic. Neither does overlaying maps of hyperboria and Europe/Med/Levant.
One can equally argue that Gandalf is Merlin and the Shire is the British Midlands, and that Hobbits are little Englanders.

I never said it was historical, just rooted in real history, which it is.
But I don't see Middle Earth having such direct parallels unless you know of letters where he stated it specifically. In REH's case I believe he did map out which real country was the basis for the Hyborian version.
After all, the characters in the Hyborian world are mostly human, not elves, dwarves, etc. To suggest the elves or orcs represent a particular country is far more politically incendiary than what REH did with his world-building.

 

[BAYLOR]

I never said it was historical, just rooted in real history, which it is.
But I don't see Middle Earth having such direct parallels unless you know of letters where he stated it specifically. In REH's case I believe he did map out which real country was the basis for the Hyborian version.
After all, the characters in the Hyborian world are mostly human, not elves, dwarves, etc. To suggest the elves or orcs represent a particular country is far more politically incendiary than what REH did with his world-building.

Howard also wrote out a a bit of pseudo history of the Hyborian age. It's few pages long give a brief synopsis and explanation of the world od the Hyborian age. it was in the Ace 12 volume edition of Conan stories that Id had read.

 

[Vince W]

Howard also wrote out a a bit of pseudo history of the Hyborian age. It's few pages long give a brief synopsis and explanation of the world od the Hyborian age. it was in the Ace 12 volume edition of Conan stories that Id had read.

It's also included in the more recent Del Rey collection.

 

[BAYLOR]

Many authors have written and published Conan stories but most of them are clearly inferior to the originals so I don't think he is as easily imitated as you seem to suggest.

And I would say while many authors have tried to imitate Howard stylistically, who actually wants to imitate Tolkien's (rather dry) style? It is not his style that people seek to ape but rather his world building, the way he injected a real sense of history and age into his settings.

And I think another branch of major influence (and every bit as important) on modern fantasy is via authors such as Lord Dunsany and Jack Vance that are quite apart from either Howard and Tolkien.

Karl Edward Wagner's novel Conan The Road of Kings and Poul Anderson's Conan The Rebel stack up pretty well . L Sprague De Camp,. Lin Carter, Bjorn Nyborg wrote some pretty good Conan stories. Some of Jordon's and worth reading Sean Moore, John Maddox Roberts Conan novels are fun to read.

 

[copper]

I never said it was historical, just rooted in real history, which it is.
But I don't see Middle Earth having such direct parallels unless you know of letters where he stated it specifically. In REH's case I believe he did map out which real country was the basis for the Hyborian version.
After all, the characters in the Hyborian world are mostly human, not elves, dwarves, etc. To suggest the elves or orcs represent a particular country is far more politically incendiary than what REH did with his world-building.

The impression I have gotten from Tolkien's biographers is that he was trying to create a new mythic landscape, not rooted in particular countries or times though of course drawing from them (the link between the Shire and the rural English countryside is clear, but the Shire was also clearly not meant to be in any real world Britain).

 

[BAYLOR]

The impression I have gotten from Tolkien's biographers is that he was trying to create a new mythic landscape, not rooted in particular countries or times though of course drawing from them (the link between the Shire and the rural English countryside is clear, but the Shire was also clearly not meant to be in any real world Britain).

That sounds about right.

Welcome to Chrones Copper

 

[copper]

That sounds about right.

Welcome to Chrones Copper

Thanks!
I'm mostly poking around hoping to find something worth reading that I haven't read before.

 

[BAYLOR]

It's also included in the more recent Del Rey collection.

I liked Howards Hyboran age. It had dynamism that I find lacking is so many imagined fantasy worlds . Why did Like Howard as much as I did ? The adventure , action and shear joy of reading his stories . Everything Howard ever wrote had vibrancy, magic, wonder and a sense fun. When I read any story by Howard , I could visualize the characters the setting , and everything else. Ive never been able to quite recapture that in books and stories ive read since.

 

[Vince W]

Howard certainly had a wonderful way of painting the Hyborian world with a minimum of filler. The pulp editors wouldn't have had it any other way. It also means that your Hyborian world will have variations to my Hyborian world. At least in the smaller details. That helps to make the stories more personal, I think.

By treating your readers like they have a brain and are capable of making the correct assumptions based on the information given writers like Howard could focus on the story. The modern way of treating a reader like an idiot by describing even the most mundane points to bulk up the word count is enormously tedious.

 

[Extollager]

The impression I have gotten from Tolkien's biographers is that he was trying to create a new mythic landscape, not rooted in particular countries or times though of course drawing from them (the link between the Shire and the rural English countryside is clear, but the Shire was also clearly not meant to be in any real world Britain).

Tolkien did see The Hobbit and LotR as set long ago in what became Europe, but so long ago that the shape of the world has changed a bit since then (and by those books' Third Age, the world has changed drastically indeed from what it was).. Those books are set in an earlier age than that in which we live, thousands, but not millions, of years ago.

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But I don't think Tolkien ever seriously tried to wedge Middle-earth's history into a particular geological epoch.

It seems the relationship of man and "nature" was conceived to have been different then. This might reflect an interest, on Tolkien's part, in the thought of his acquaintance Owen Barfield.

 

[BAYLOR]

Howard certainly had a wonderful way of painting the Hyborian world with a minimum of filler. The pulp editors wouldn't have had it any other way. It also means that your Hyborian world will have variations to my Hyborian world. At least in the smaller details. That helps to make the stories more personal, I think.

By treating your readers like they have a brain and are capable of making the correct assumptions based on the information given writers like Howard could focus on the story. The modern way of treating a reader like an idiot by describing even the most mundane points to bulk up the word count is enormously tedious.

What these modern writers don't seem to understand is that Tediousness descriptions can turn off readers to their stories.

 

[Extollager]

Happily, Baylor, some authors who write excellent description don't worry about readers who find it tedious!