So, Why DID the Japanese attack Pearl Harbor?

[Ray McCarthy]

when they attacked the Russian fleet

The Japanese sank most of the Russian fleet, not just in Harbour. The Russians thought Radio would give away position, but there was only two routes, and Japanese used observers with radio in 1905 war to "plot" route of Russian Attack fleet.
Early Radio reporting too, as a US journalist was allowed to accompany Japanese in Chinese Junk, radio to mainland and messages forwarded to his US Paper by mix of telegraph and radio.

This was 16 years before Broadcast radio and only about 7 years after successful start of commercialisation of Wireless by Marconi and quickly others. Marconi didn't invent Wireless, he never claimed to either, his advance was the large wire up high (hence aerial) and the other in the ground (hence earth) rather than small portable loop on the earlier sets. He and others then added tuning which allowed multiple operators and greater efficiency.

 

[Cathbad]

Yamamoto knew that if Japan couldn't achieve a quick knockout , they were doomed to defeat. Even if they had at launched the third wave at Pearl Harbor and had been victorious at Midway , they still would have lost the war.

I believe so... yet, if they weren't going to press, they should've just stayed home.

 

[Foxbat]

The Japanese sank most of the Russian fleet, not just in Harbour. The Russians thought Radio would give away position, but there was only two routes, and Japanese used observers with radio in 1905 war to "plot" route of Russian Attack fleet.
Early Radio reporting too, as a US journalist was allowed to accompany Japanese in Chinese Junk, radio to mainland and messages forwarded to his US Paper by mix of telegraph and radio.

Just curious. Is this one of the earliest examples of radio being used to co-ordinate naval action?

 

[Ray McCarthy]

Is this one of the earliest examples of radio being used to co-ordinate naval action?

I think it might. Very well done too. Also first Radio War reporting.
Earliest attempted use was Boer War (not sure which one). But the wagon mounted radio sets were stuck on ship at Durban or some such place for a while, but may have been of some assistance for Port Arthur (on land) later.

Next widespread use in war was 1914, French developed the R type valve (tube), before then it was very primitive. Used on planes for gun spotting etc, morse key strapped to thigh ... Balloons used cabled phones.

Mechanical TV (22 line as per Baird's 1930 dead end system) had been demo'd in 1899, Fax on telegraphic lines from 1852, so in theory UK COULD have had live reporting (via morse code, fax and 22 line video) via relay stations from the Boer War.

Communications history is an interest of mine and my first job was as a BBC Communications Engineer.

 

[psikeyhackr]

Never underestimate the stupidity of the over-inflated military ego.

Commodore Perry was American. The barbarians must be put in their place.

psik

 

[BAYLOR]

I believe so... yet, if they weren't going to press, they should've just stayed home.

The United States greatest advantage was our industrial capacity in that era was enormous . We could simply outproduce Japan, Germany and Italy.

 

[Foxbat]

Never underestimate the stupidity of the over-inflated military ego.

Commodore Perry was American. The barbarians must be put in their place.

psik

The roots of Pearl Harbour could arguably be traced right back to Perry and the coming of the black ships. A desire to become a world power emerged as a quick follow-on to the end of Japan's isolationism. Its feudal system was more or less dismantled by the Meiji Restoration, which put the emperor back in charge, and ended the Tokugawa Shogunate. It was at this time that the Imperial Japanese Army and Imperial Japanese Navy came into being.

The Japanese employed British experts to help where the navy was concerned (many of the Japanese ships involved in the Russo-Japanese war were built in the UK) and French to help organise the new army. After the Franco-Prussian war, the French were ditched in favour of the victorious Prussians, and this led to a state very similar to the militaristic European power that found its ascendancy under Frederick The Great. The Japanese did, however, keep to the Code Of Bushido (unswerving loyalty to the emperor, honour in death etc.). So now, we have a mix of Prussian militarism and Samurai fanaticism.

The problem of natural resources then reared its head and the Japanese looked to Korea with its coal reserves as the answer (the first step on the Northern Road). Coal was important because it was what was used to fuel the new navy. This brought them in to conflict with China.

As the 20th century progressed, Oil replaced coal as the naval source of power and eyes began to look south for supplies (the ascendancy of the Southern Road thinking). After that, conflict with the The US Navy (the main player in the Pacific) was all but inevitable.

 

[2DaveWixon]

As we all know (said Captain Obvious) the reason Japan attacked the US was because we had placed an oil embargo on them and they needed the oil to be found in the Dutch East Indies. Got it.

So why in HELL didn't they just go to war with the DUTCH?

And OK, so I guess the Dutch were allied with the British, so why didn't they just go to war with the BRITISH, alone? (which they did anyway by attacking PH, as Britain was quite anxious to ally with the US)

There surely was no real assurance that the US would come into the war in defense of Britain or the Dutch, if the US had not been attacked, as both had been at war with Germany for over a year and the US had not come into that war yet.

And they surely didn't expect the US to lift the Embargo, even if they had achieved their limited objective of making the US sue for peace.

OK, they really couldn't have expected to win anyway BUT that's not what I'm talking about here. It just seems to not make sense to bother the US even if they COULD have won.

Must be something well-known I'm overlooking.

My suggestion? The Japanese leadership was infected by the same bug that got to Dick Cheney and George W. Bush six or so decades later... That is, they were convinced that their soon-to-be enemy just would not fight, would cave in to a show of overwhelming force: a lack of understanding of Western psychology -- and American psychology in particular -- that makes American misunderstanding of Japanese psychology pale by comparison.

It is difficult for the kind of people who get deep into discussions like this thread to really understand that many, if not most, decisions come from emotions and dreams, not from calculations...

Dave Wixon



Dave Wixon

 

[2DaveWixon]

My suggestion? The Japanese leadership was infected by the same bug that got to Dick Cheney and George W. Bush six or so decades later... That is, they were convinced that their soon-to-be enemy just would not fight, would cave in to a show of overwhelming force: a lack of understanding of Western psychology -- and American psychology in particular -- that makes American misunderstanding of Japanese psychology pale by comparison.

It is difficult for the kind of people who get deep into discussions like this thread to really understand that many, if not most, decisions come from emotions and dreams, not from calculations...

Dave Wixon



Dave Wixon

Let me put it like this: the attack on Pearl Harbor, although sold to the more simplistic among the Japanese leadership as having military advantages, was in my opinion a PR campaign: bloody the noses of the American military and the American electorate, who supposedly lacked the inner strength (character, if you will) of the Japanese, would demand that the U.S. pull out of the Western Pacific and Asia. In other words, it was shock and awe for the 1940s. (And there might well have been some reason for the Japanese to believe that Americans would react like that, given that the U.S. had to be almost bludgeoned into entering WWI, and that a lot of American politics between WWI and WWII revolved around isolationism -- some Japanese no doubt thought that if the U.S. was reluctant to stand up to European adversaries, it would be even more so regarding East Asia...)

Dave Wixon, yet again


Dave Wixon