Alice and Wonderland Knockoffs

[Kzinti]

Does anyone have a comprehensive list of Alice in Wonderland knockoffs? I heard there was a video game in 2000 that had a horror version of the story.

 

[Toby Frost]

No, but I'm quite interested in the Alice books and what people have made of them. The game you're thinking of is American McGee's Alice. A sequel, Alice: Madness Returns was released in 2010 or so. I put up some thoughts about it here: http://www.sffchronicles.co.uk/forum/534765-alice-madness-returns.html

Martin Gardner's Annotated Alice gives a list of literary adaptations, but I don't think it's very up to date.Wikipedia might be good at the more pop-culture end of the scale.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

There seems to be a fad for Alice knockoffs at the moment, so a comprehensive list might include hundreds of titles, especially if you look at Kindle books.

 

[Kzinti]

Glad to know there are that many. I was about to start writing one, but I've changed my mind.

 

[Toby Frost]

I think one of the problems with Alice-related stories is that people seem to write them as if they were writing Lord of the Rings: they split Wonderland into good guys and bad guys and then have the two armies fight. One of the main appeals of the Alice books for me is that they don't work like that. Things can be wonderful and dangerous at the same time. The other thing that annoys me is the slightly cheesy Gothic look that everyone seems to want to put on it. I always imagine Wonderland as like the dream sequences in Heavenly Creatures: brightly lit, jolly and really quite sinister as well.

That said, I can't see why someone couldn't write a good sequel to the Alice books provided they did something original with it. I could see it being like a nicer equivalent of those fantasy novels Clive Barker did, where characters would pass into another world - Imajica and so on.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

A good Alice knockoff is really hard.

It's Edward Lear's nonsense in a Mathematical Logic framework pushed toward Nihilism. Hunting of the Snark may have been the last in this vein that "Lewis Carroll" wrote. His later writing is unrelated.

 

[Kzinti]

Yeah, that last Alice In Wonderland movie with the Nightmare Before Christmas feel was pretty awful. I didn't see it, but I can't stand that guy who played the Mad Hatter.

 

[Stephen Palmer]

One of my recent WIPs features an alternate A.I.W., focussing on a different character.

Good to read Toby's posts, I think the gothic look must be down to Tim Burton's film. Didn't like that film. A.I.W. is more akin to Jorge Luis Borges than anything...

 

[hitmouse]

Yeah, that last Alice In Wonderland movie with the Nightmare Before Christmas feel was pretty awful. I didn't see it, but I can't stand that guy who played the Mad Hatter.

If you didn't see it how do you know it was awful? If you mean the Tim Burton film with Johnny Depp as the Mad Hatter, then it was a bit uneven, but not bad at all.

Automated Alice Jeff Noon

 

[Karn Maeshalanadae]

Technically Neverwhere by Neil Gaiman could be considered an Alice In Wonderland knockoff...



As for Wonderland and the whole outlook Toby has on it, I have to say I politely disagree with him. Even as a child I felt that Wonderland wasn't really meant to be all bright and cheerful for some reason or another. The elements it shows are really darker than a lot of people consider. In fact, I blame Disney for shedding that bright, cheerful outlook on it rather than Tim Burton doing the other way around.


My views MIGHT be a bit askewed, some would say, due to American Mcgee's Alice, but, I rather liked that portrayal. I'm sure Alice would have been sent in for psychological quackery in her time and age if she had told anyone of the world she experienced, and psychology during that time period was really in its infancy as a field, so not was there vast amounts not well understood, but treatments would be considered simply inhumane by today's standards. It might have been nonsensical, but I didn't think it was really all that cheery. The Duchess, who not only neglected her child-an infant who was suffering from a cold-but also beat it for its woe, and wished to consume the Mock Turtle, an intelligent, sentient, talking being.

The Red Queen, with her short temper and a willingness to have the head removed of any she perceived to have slighted or gone against her in any way. Subsequently, the fear such a tyrant could cause.

The allusions to drug use, such as the caterpillar smoking his hookah and the mushroom that allowed Alice to grow and shrink as she consumed bits. Perhaps minor, though, considering mannerisms and relatively lacking medical knowledge in those days.


I would say that Carrol's true nonsensical literature had lain with Jabberwocky and The Hunting Of The Snark.

 

[hitmouse]

A good Alice knockoff is really hard.

It's Edward Lear's nonsense in a Mathematical Logic framework pushed toward Nihilism. Hunting of the Snark may have been the last in this vein that "Lewis Carroll" wrote. His later writing is unrelated.

I am not quite sure I understand what you are trying to say here. If your contention is that Carroll is simply Lear with knobs on then I disagree and think that you are doing a disservice to both writers.

 

[Kzinti]

Technically Neverwhere by Neil Gaiman could be considered an Alice In Wonderland knockoff...



As for Wonderland and the whole outlook Toby has on it, I have to say I politely disagree with him. Even as a child I felt that Wonderland wasn't really meant to be all bright and cheerful for some reason or another. The elements it shows are really darker than a lot of people consider. In fact, I blame Disney for shedding that bright, cheerful outlook on it rather than Tim Burton doing the other way around.


My views MIGHT be a bit askewed, some would say, due to American Mcgee's Alice, but, I rather liked that portrayal. I'm sure Alice would have been sent in for psychological quackery in her time and age if she had told anyone of the world she experienced, and psychology during that time period was really in its infancy as a field, so not was there vast amounts not well understood, but treatments would be considered simply inhumane by today's standards. It might have been nonsensical, but I didn't think it was really all that cheery. The Duchess, who not only neglected her child-an infant who was suffering from a cold-but also beat it for its woe, and wished to consume the Mock Turtle, an intelligent, sentient, talking being.

The Red Queen, with her short temper and a willingness to have the head removed of any she perceived to have slighted or gone against her in any way. Subsequently, the fear such a tyrant could cause.

The allusions to drug use, such as the caterpillar smoking his hookah and the mushroom that allowed Alice to grow and shrink as she consumed bits. Perhaps minor, though, considering mannerisms and relatively lacking medical knowledge in those days.


I would say that Carrol's true nonsensical literature had lain with Jabberwocky and The Hunting Of The Snark.

You know, I never really thought about mushrooms being a drug reference. I first read the book as an adult, ergo my perception was that of a children's book.m

 

[Jo Zebedee]

I hadn't thought of Neverwhere in the context of Alice when I was reading it (but I'm not a huge Alice fan.) Now you've pointed it out, Karn, it's an absolute head-slap of a moment. Of course it is. It even has a mouse...

 

[Idoru]

I'm not sure if it counts as a knock-off, but Automated Alice by Jeff Noon is pretty awesome. It's written as a sequel to Lewis Carroll's books.

 

[Kzinti]

It's too bad Dodgson didn't write another Alice book. It needed to be a trilogy.

 

[Karn Maeshalanadae]

Actually, Kzinti, I must admit that I did not care for Through The Looking Glass nearly as much as I did for its predecessor, and I think there were reasons why he didn't continue on. You have to remember that it was originally written for the daughter of a friend of his, and I think by that time she might have grown up enough to not believe in or care as much for fairy tales and fantasy then.


And yes, I would say Neverwhere is a Wonderland-like. (To borrow a phrasing of pseudo-genre from gaming). Its back cover even kind of mentions it to be, through a review. Or at least, my copy does.

 

[Bick]

If you're interested in the use of the character 'Alice' elsewhere, Kzinti, have you read the Riverworld books by PJ Farmer?

 

[Kzinti]

If you're interested in the use of the character 'Alice' elsewhere, Kzinti, have you read the Riverworld books by PJ Farmer?

No, I haven't, but I've put that on my list now. I wonder if Dodgson has any children to carry on his legacy. HG Wells's great grandson did the Time MAchine movie.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

The college income Dodgson accepted had condition that he take orders (he didn't much want to, but did take a Deacon's post created) and stay single. Any children are not documented.

Monica Dickens is (was 1915-1992) great-granddaughter of Charles Dickens. But quite different. I like her autobiographical humour and her Children's books (which are mostly quite late in her career).

 

[Kzinti]

The college income Dodgson accepted had condition that he take orders (he didn't much want to, but did take a Deacon's post created) and stay single. Any children are not documented.

Monica Dickens is (was 1915-1992) great-granddaughter of Charles Dickens. But quite different. I like her autobiographical humour and her Children's books (which are mostly quite late in her career).

Shame. We needed additional Alice books from those of the right lineage. Incidentally, I remember enjoying the Simon Wells version of the Time MAchine, although I haven't seen it in a decade.