Economically realistic interstellar Empire?

[Jester85]

So one of the main civilizations in my series is a militaristic Empire that rules various other worlds and moons but whose own homeworld is a dilapidated rock which they ruined long ago by rampant hyper-industrialization.

Is it enough of a hand-waving explanation to say they use the worlds they control for natural resources, or is that completely inadequate?

They basically have a Cold War going on with much of the rest of the galaxy, which is allied in a United Nations-esque federation which the Empire is not a member of, so there's not a lot of trade anyone's doing with them.

Also, this Empire's culture has a very powerful aristocracy. But the aristocracy has to be getting funded from somewhere, right? Ownership of the corporations strip-mining the colony worlds? Ownership of tech corporations?

Given my Emperor is obsessed with tradition for the sake of tradition and believes in the aristocracy being divinely appointed to rule, etc., it would not be out-of-character for him to be propping them up at cost to the economy and dwindling royal treasury.

Or it could just be one of those situations where they're all in massive debt but clinging to the days of yesteryear and living like kings, and nobody talks about it.

And this Empire is meant to be crumbling, and have a Soviet Union issue of presenting itself as this invincible juggernaut while cracking apart at the seams.

 

[Michael Colton]

There's no reason you can't go with a form of interstellar colonialism where the resources are shipped back to the home system.

 

[Mirannan]

I don't know much about your backdrop (the degree of difficulty and expense involved in interstellar travel is IMHO a crucial factor) but one setup that's been made to work a few times in fiction is a feudal aristocracy much like the way the Middle Ages was set up. One in which each level has obligations to the one above, but is given authority over its fiefdom - which varies in size and/or importance; the fiefdom of a duke is greater than that of a baronet, which is reflected in the names given to each. (Compare the Duke of Devonshire with the Earl of Sandwich, for example.)

This is a solution to slow and difficult transport and/or communications, and breaks down when central authority can directly influence what happens at the edges. (Military commanders and diplomats in the 18th century were given considerable autonomy, because they had to have it to function.)

The main inbuilt problem of such a system is that there is a great temptation to enjoy the privileges at each level, while ignoring the responsibilities. I'm told that mediaeval knights and barons spent a good deal of their time training; even a lot of their recreations (hunting for example) had a training aspect to them. (If you have faced down a charging wild boar, maybe you'll be a little less likely to break and run - or lose - in combat?)

The bit about responsibility as well as privileges still hangs on. A good example in the 21st century, even, is the Duke of Westminster; he is a multi-billionaire, and that's because he IS the Duke of Westminster - but he is also an active military reservist, who trains quite frequently. Admittedly, most of today's aristocrats (whether called that or not; does the USA really not have any aristocrats in fact rather than name?) are less responsible.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

@Jester85
Information & cultural artefacts is more realistic basis. It's actually nearly impossible to use up your own planet resources, never mind the local system. But as most people either don't know this or don't believe it then your original scenario is fine.
Also look at Chinese Government 200BC to 1912 AD (or BCE / CE if you prefer).

It's possible to have a rigid hierarchy and still have 'democratic' local councils or 'soviets' in each place. An overall Communism or Democracy likely can't function at that scale (hence in SF the loose Alliance / Federation / Council / Association is common. It's very likely that local control from a supposed central command only really exists because it's a convenient fiction (c.f. decline of Empire in Foundation Trilogy).

As well as Western Feudalism and the Chinese 'not-really-Feudal' system look at pre 15th C Irish Brehon law and how the High King / individual Kings / Chieftains worked and how there were Noble families but eldest DIDN'T inherit the ruling (a kind of council picked the ruler from the Noble family or families) and also Fostering in Ireland, Rome and Western Feudalism.

Look too at pre Raj india.

Plenty via Search and Wikipedia.

 

[Vertigo]

To be fair, once you've got into space then it is highly unlikely that you would need to go to other star systems for resources that you couldn't find locally in your own system. It's hard to think what resources they would find elsewhere unless there are no other planets in their system; both an unlikely scenario and also, I believe, one that would be unlikely to produce life as their would be too much other debris crashing into that one planet. I might be wrong on that last point, but I believe the chances of all the material in a star system all being in the star and just one planet is extremely unlikely. So there should be plenty of other resources available in their own backyard.

As for organic resources; I can't imagine a civilisation that has created an interstellar empire still needing fossil fuels. And, equally, such a civilisation would surely be able to create habitats where food is grown much more cheaply than shipping them from outside. Not to mention the fact that no militaristic civilisation would ever let itself be so totally dependant on outside resources. Militarily speaking that would just make it way too vulnerable.

I'm afraid I've only ever been able to image realistic interstellar trade being in things like ideas, technology or art. For transporting things like plants or animals it would be cheaper and easier to ship seeds and foetuses (or their equivalent) which is effectively a one time only operation.

Edit: Ray answered whilst I was typing but I agree also with his final point; what I have described is the 'hard' view on things. Most readers don't really care and most space opera (much of it excellent) also conveniently ignores it. So I would just go ahead!

 

[Ray McCarthy]

If you can't grow Chocolate (cacao) easily, or there were other things found to be impossible due to symbiotic relationships (Vanilla?). Dune has 'spice' since 'oil' isn't going to be feasible as rare resource. So there may be some strange resource that is tricky. Other tricky examples in the past were Rubber (turns out you can get it from dandelions though), Saffron (still horribly expensive), certain peppers, even salt!

Your garden may have opium poppies (this is common and quite legal in UK). They need a very specific environment to produce opium. But the the hemp not used for cloth or rope is easy to grow so the drug trade doesn't have the difficulties there are with cocaine and opium.

Or a planet that has a species of Telepaths.
Certainly you can invent 'unlikely' resource monopolies and these can be believable because they have been true here in the past.

 

[Venusian Broon]

Personally I think from the description you give, trying to put a realistic economy together is probably unnecessary.

Aristocracies, in my mind, rarely worried about economies. It is by its original definition rule by 'excellent' people and generally in such a society these excellent people not only thought they were merely a class above everyone else, but that everyone else was practically a sub-species of humanity. If they wanted something from someone in the lower order they would just take it because that was obviously the order of the world to them.

To give a classical example, the Spartans totally focused their society to their ideals of marital prowess, but the menial job of growing crops, making pots and buildings etc... , well they were well above that - so they enslaved a whole people to force them carry out these tasks. Famously as well, in the ideal Spartan society, the idea of wealth was meaningless. A Spartan man's worth was his actions on the field of battle and a Spartan woman's worth was being a fit and strong mother for the next generation. It was pure ideology that drove them.

Now you don't have to be as austere. And you don't need to be rational (Sorry Vertigo - far too sensible ) What if in your central world the social standing within aristocratic order is influenced by ostentation i.e. you have to flaunt yourself to demonstrate your power to others by how great your parties and entertainments were. (Think of the Roman emperors who would ship in produce from all over the empire to impress: food & wine, wild animals and novelties.) There could be a trade between the home planet and the rest of the empire as rare and expensive goods are forever being sought by the aristocracy to impress. It doesn't need to make modern capitalist, economic or scientifically rational sense.

For example. Say on one far flung outpost of the empire a great distance away there was a particular rare produce - for the sake of this argument let's say 'blue grapes'. They are not a staple crop but they have a distinctive flavour, different from normal grapes. Now because they are very rare and a huge distance away, they would be extremely expensive to transport. And perhaps they get picked up by your aristocrats as something gourmet to impress guests because everyone knows they are expensive (To give a real world example, in the late Victorian/Edwardian period the well off brought this amazing new fruit to their dinner parties - the pineapple - as in those days there wasn't really much canning or a lot of quick delivery of pineapples, so they were extremely expensive. And it was all about show. I believe that they were so costly and rare at first that they were just put on the table for others to marvel at. No one would actually eat it, their owners would instead try and preserve it as long as possible and use it over many dinners!)

Now if you were an entrepreneur, you might think, "I'll get some blue grape seeds, and grow them here. I'll make a killing." Perhaps, but also by drastically reducing the price of this food stuff as you are now growing it in your back yard, it no longer becomes expensive or rare. Therefore the demand for it disappears because it no longer fits the bill for the parties, they move on to the next rare delicacy that demonstrates their power over other worlds.

Anyway a different take for you to ponder. Food for thought as they say

 

[Vertigo]

VB makes some valid points (grrrr grumble grumble mutter ) with regard to rarity value particularly in that sort of martial aristocratic society. To take a similar example to the 'blue grapes', places like Australia, California and Chile all produce wine that is, arguably, of better quality than French wine (due to more modern and efficient technology being used) but French wine still has major pretentious value and still sells at a premium.

 

[Sapheron]

I don't think a realistic interstellar empire has been portrayed in fiction yet. It's probably because no one has a clue how it would be done in real life, and I'm not blaming any author or whatever, as I doubt i could do it either. That said, as long as yours isn't clearly ridiculous (like a major interstellar trade of cement or something), then I don't see why you should worry. Look at star wars, star trek, dune, warhammer 40k, the culture, and in each and every one you find things that probably don't actually make much sense if you think about it too hard. Doubtless if looked at by an expert panel of scientists and economists there'd be even more wrong with it.

Basically I'd say do whatever you want.

 

[RobPrescott]

I think the most important thing for this kind of setting isn't so much 'realism' as it is internal consistency. Lots of the best sci-fi and fantasy worlds don't really make any kind of real-world sense, but they make sense within themselves; by the rules set up within them. I'd say go with whatever you think has the most flavour and character but then remember to apply it throughout and you can't go too wrong.

"Given my Emperor is obsessed with tradition for the sake of tradition and believes in the aristocracy being divinely appointed to rule, etc., it would not be out-of-character for him to be propping them up at cost to the economy and dwindling royal treasury."

This idea sounds excellent. Added in some of Venusian's suggestions about not having an economically driven society and you've certainly got the foundations of a setting that I'd love to read. It could work really well if the rest of the galaxy was economically minded, and drive the division between the empire and the interstellar community, really working the cold war parallel.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

Internal consistency is important even if some of it would look bonkers to a real economist. Anyway they don't read SF to analyse the economies usually.

 

[Mirannan]

Another idea that's been used a few times is that of a society in which the technology level enjoyed by the general populace is mediaeval (or earlier) and the aristocracy set themselves up as fake gods using high technology that's rigidly controlled. Probably the best treatment of this is Zelazny's "Lord of Light" (with the theocracy being loosely based on Hinduism) except that he larded it with psionics as well.

 

[Michael Colton]

I don't think a realistic interstellar empire has been portrayed in fiction yet. It's probably because no one has a clue how it would be done in real life, and I'm not blaming any author or whatever, as I doubt i could do it either. That said, as long as yours isn't clearly ridiculous (like a major interstellar trade of cement or something), then I don't see why you should worry. Look at star wars, star trek, dune, warhammer 40k, the culture, and in each and every one you find things that probably don't actually make much sense if you think about it too hard. Doubtless if looked at by an expert panel of scientists and economists there'd be even more wrong with it.

Basically I'd say do whatever you want.

In the case of Trek, they explicitly say that in the Federation they have eliminated want. So he was intentionally avoiding the entire topic of economics.

 

[psychotick]

Hi,

I think you're looking at a Soviet style empire from what I can tell, with some aristocratic aspects thrown in. So looking first at the cold war soviet economy across the USSR they did have an internal trade between their countries, while still not being part of the greater world economy (more or less). So to answer your question the aristocracy was being funded - by themselves. The emperor would not need to prop up the rest of the aristocracy unless there was something drastically wrong with their internal economy.

Now as to how the USSR finally fell, its death was essentially one based on pure economics. The US capitalist system could out produce them by miles, and in order to try and keep up with them in a cold war, the Soviets had to produce their system to match by putting more and more production into their military. And then they had to go further and put more and more production into control and espionage of their own people, because their people could see what the west had and wanted it. Then they had to put more and more production into making some of those goods to keep the people happy. Hence the endless numbers of truly horrible cars they made. And at some point when so much of your economy is being internally used to run an army, a police force, and an industrial complex which produce mediocre products, you start running into problems trying to provide everything else a society needs. In essence the Soviets got outspent as they tried to compete.

Now to overlay that a bit, the next thing you have to consider the cost and time involved in interstellar travel. To bring resources back to the home world, whatever they are, you need to have a fast and cheap system of transport. The slower and more expensive it becomes, the less stuff merchants will be able to bring back, and the more likely they will be luxury, light weight goods - eg spices and silk.

Cheers, Greg.

 

[Mirannan]

psychotick - And then you run into the inconvenient fact that a technology level high enough to allow interstellar travel probably also includes various ways of making even fairly complicated items - such as the spices and silk you mention.

The only difference between a pile of cinnamon and a pile of rotten cabbage is the arrangement of the atoms, after all.

(Sure, various fictional milieux have ignored this. Usually because they were written before nanotech and the like were thought of. Take the Lensmen setting; routine interstellar travel, weaponised planets, warships with power levels a significant fraction of a main-sequence star and it's obviously a type II civilisation at least - witness the sunbeam - but mechanical computers!)

 

[Ray McCarthy]

But some recent SF has mechanical computers ... using nanotech!

 

[Cosmic Geoff]

Since creating an interplanetary (interstellar?) empire is currently not practicable it seems rather a moot point. If it was, who knows how cheap or easy travel and transportation might be? So write what you like, so long as it's internally consistent.
I'd avoid using archaic terms like 'Emperor' or 'aristocracy' if I were you, though. While these kind of things are still with us (the current dictator of North Korea seems rather equivalent to a medieval king, for instance), they go under different names nowadays. The USA proudly boasts that it has never had a European-style aristocracy, but many commentators think that actually they do have an aristocracy - one based on money and political power.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

If they don't speak English, the western or Chinese terms can be give as "the similar translation"

The list I'm using for contemporary Aliens (Mix of Europeans with similar level Chinese. No European country had all those at once, I think, Some Chinese periods had more levels)
http://www.sffchronicles.com/threads/546786/page-2#post-1845105

See note about Chinese NOT being Feudalism in Western sense.

There might be Intersteller civilisations, and we not know. But for reasons mentioned an actual empire may be a pure fictional piece of fun even if some people out there do have sensible starships.

 

[Mirannan]

But some recent SF has mechanical computers ... using nanotech!

OK. Shall we say "clanking computers" then?

 

[FibonacciEddie]

I think the most important thing for this kind of setting isn't so much 'realism' as it is internal consistency ...

I totally agree with Rob.

Set yourself a few parameters ... concerning the big items (e.g., cost of travel, speed of travel, instantaneous communication?) ... then keep those consistent ... and then drive on with the story

A large/corrupt/idealist government falling apart will resonate and be understandable by the readers

Did you read Mistborn (Brandon Sanderson)? .. static empire; built on oppression ... but relevant to Ray (UN) comments - a few critical goods were highly prized and that can be used to get people moving around.