34.12: Death in Heaven

[Ursa major]

With Santa, the Doctor's time travelling capability is irrelevant: the action must be set in the present day....

​

 

[TheEndIsNigh]

Technically not so Ursa.

given all the 'stories' about santa he manipulates time to get the job done.

now it's bad enough the bbc trampling over everyones religious beliefs about the afterlife and calling asian colonels 'boy scout' but are they really going to ruin christmas for children by mixing him up in a who plot screened on christmas day?

They really need to get a new dartboard and some decent arras

 

[Ursa major]

Technically not so Ursa.

given all the 'stories' about santa he manipulates time to get the job done.

Thanks for mentioning this. I now have an image of the Doctor helping Santa to deliver presents all round the world.

Only the thought of Capaldi emerging from various fireplaces to tell the children they don't deserve a present makes this image even remotely acceptable**. And it'll only be a momentary respite: as with Scrooge, he'll have a change of heart and give everyone a gift.


** - He could use a tiny TARDIS: as the child approaches, ready to take his or her gift, Capaldi's full-size hand appears through the miniature doorway and gives the child the bird....

 

[JunkMonkey]

And at the end of it all we now have a 'good' Cyberman to go with the Good Dalek from earlier in the series. Do the Daleks and the Cyberman have some sort of parity deal? (And we've already got a good Sontaran and a good Sylurian kicking about in Victorian England) - what's next? A Good Auton? A good Ice Warrior? A Good Script?

And I am sooooooooo frelling fed up with the self-sacrifice motif that runs through the Who these days - just how many times did Danny Pink do the noble thing during that double episode? I lost count I was too busy throwing things at the screen by the end of it.

 

[Ursa major]

A Good Script?

Now you're just being silly. (Sadly. )

 

[JunkMonkey]

Wait! I'm getting a feed from a secret meeting deep in the bowels of BBC Wales:

Voice One: So it's a spin off?
Voice Two: Yeah. He's a Dalek and he's a Cyberman - but they're both cops!

 

[AnyaKimlin]

It was watchable which I think in large part is down to Peter Capaldi and the fact is companion is a lot less annoying than those Matt Smith was saddled with. I find Stephen Moffat is great at ideas, can come up with great character but fails greatly at pulling those together into a comprehensible story. Hubby made me watch it last night whilst I was finishing my script and if nothing else it forced me to go back over mine with a fine tooth comb for plot issues.

 

[Anushka Mokosh]

I'm having issues with Clara and I was hoping that this season would be her last, but it seems she will be featured in Special considering a lot about her is left unresolved. I don't enjoy the interactions between her and the Doctor and find her to be taking away from the story at times.

I liked Master's new face, Missy. She was just the right kind of insane and pushed the Doctor pretty far which is exactly why Master is such a good villain for the Doctor.

 

[Donal DeLay]

Just signed up, and I didn't see a general rules/guidelines thread, and saw some posting spoilers in this thread. But, just as a warning, there's spoilers in this post for this episode.

The entire season was a pretty huge letdown filled with ripped off stories, endings, and lackluster characters with no depth, or connectivity to the audience. First, I don't know about mass audience, but my wife and a few friends all got the impression from the 50th Anniversary episode that this season's theme was going to be the search for Gallifrey. It barely got 2 mentions, including when he was given coordinates for it. How am I supposed to feel his rage when he didn't find it if he hasn't even been shown to be looking for it. Because he drew some diagrams on chalk boards he didn't explain?

I was sad to see Danny Pink go, not because of the way he went, but because the actor showed some decent chops in Part I of the finale, (and during the season at points) and was hoping to see him and The Doctor get a nice, juicy scene together. But, if we were supposed to care about Danny in the finale, they did a piss poor job of doing that. We barely focused on him and Clara the entire season, and we're supposed to buy into this grand love they've created. When? Off screen? Because most of the interactions we've seen between them have not allowed for any romance to appear. They come across as friends in pretty much every scene.

In my eyes, the best episode of the season was Part I of the finale. But, like every other episode in the season, suffered from an underdeveloped/underwritten ending with Part II. Which, also, basically used the ending from the Atmos episode.

The entire season felt like tossed ideas pulled from a spec script drawer. And, even the worst episodes of previous seasons were better than the best of this season.

I'd also like to call bullsh*t on the entire "This is your Doctor, Clara, a soldier." nonsense Danny kept spitting any time he was even WITH The Doctor. 1. How did he draw this conclusion? That'd be like me meeting someone for the first time, see them eating a pizza and assume they're an Iron Chef. 2. There was NEVER a scene in which The Doctor and Danny had it out. They needed to. When you give two characters that much animosity towards one another there needs to be a conflict resolution, and we were deprived of that. Clara never defended The Doctor, and The Doctor never defended himself. It was a pointless conflict for conflict sake. 3. Being a former soldier, Danny should have known that in war, 1 life for 7 billion is well worth it. Clara should have known that, too, considering she had to make that very decision a few episodes earlier. He was being a selfish jerk, whining about The Doctor seeming callous towards his choices, then we're expected to care when he self-sacrifices and ACTS LIKE A SOLDIER. Basically, Danny was a selfish hypocrite who seemed to spend every scene he had with Clara guilting her into doing what he wanted her to do. We're shown him as this great self-sacrificing morally high character, but he spends most of his time trying to make Clara agree with his insanely prejudiced opinion. He makes zero sacrifice to get to know The Doctor.

Finally, if that's the way they chose to end Clara Oswald as the companion, I'm dropping the show until everyone starts raving about it again. That had less emotion than Martha leaving. They both lie to each other and create happy endings? Really? That ending was completely out of character for Clara. HIM, I could see lying for her benefit. But, this entire season, and previous, she hasn't shown one iota of concern about telling him the hard truth.

With all that said, Capaldi has basically made this season for me.

 

[markpud]

Hi Donal, welcome to Chrons!

I think you've hit on the points that have troubled a lot of us this season.. Danny never felt right to me, he was overly hostile without trying to get to know the man Clara cared so much about. Then again she consistently lied to Danny about her trips with the Doctor, so that's bound to make him suspicious. I think the writers wanted Danny to view the Doctor like the Officers he served under in the forces, and the Doctor's cold attitude to reinforce that. But it didn't work for me..

Re spoilers, in a thread like this one, focussed on a single episode you can discuss that episode (and earlier episodes) without worrying about spoilers, but in a general discussion thread about a show, please use the spoiler tag via the "insert" button on the toolbar E.g.

Spoiler: Christmas Special trailer spoilers

The trailer shows that Clara is back, for at least one more outing..

 

[Caledfwlch]

I'm sorry, but I really can't watch any more of this. I don't understand Mrs. Doyle's plan. It was obviously planned for a long time - two Seasons ago even - but is incomprehensible to me. Also, they changed Cybermen again - they have humans inside them, not just their consciousness, but they can also fly at 30,000 to 40,000 feet and still breath. And they people in the Nethersphere were not really dead, so what were they? I'm sure I saw Danny Pink in a RTA! This whole Season has been pretty much garbage but I hoped for some explanation of that tonight.

Dave, I don't think you quite get what a Cyberman is. Not suprising, because the Cybermen that were shown in the RTD era when Who came back were NOT proper Cybermen

A Cyberman is not a human brain stuck into an Iron Man rip off suit. A complete human body is taken, its limbs replaced with mechanical versions, and its organs replaced with mechnics. It is a human that has been raped by technology and turned into a walking zombie.

A Cyberman doesn't breathe, its lungs have been replaced with mechanical equipment, a Cyberman can operate in the vacuum of space, never mind high up in the air. If you look at Danny Pink, when he removes the faceplate, he has wires and technology drilled and embedded into his skin, that is all over his body, the "handles" of the helmet are likely drilled deep into the brain. And one constant thing with the cybermen, is in their determination to be stronger, better, is they constantly evolve, so their appearance changes, The first Cybermen in 1966, the original first cybermen in the dr who universe, their arms were not replaced by mechnics, their bones were reinforced with plastic and metal, and their hands were still human hands and uncovered, and they did not have helmets, their faces were covered by cloth, behind that cloth will have been wires etc drilling into head/face and their eyes replaced with mechnics. They were just as susceptible to radiation as a human body. Later versions were immune to radiation, but gold could intefere with the mechnics running their mechnical lungs.

And in actual fact, ever since Steven Moffat took over the "old" Cybus design has been long gone. Even though for budget reasons they first appeared still with the C logo, then looking the same but with the C logo gone. Which is why Amelia opens a helmet in stonehenge and finds a human skull, not remains of a brain.

Before gallifrey burned (or now moved to pocket dimension) When a Timelord died their mind was transferred into the Matrix a vast computer system that stored all the sum of timelord knowledge. Missy stole that technology and thus when people were dying on earth she was basically storing a copy of their mind/personality on a hard drive, even though their bodies were rotting. then, the cybermites turned their corpses into cybermen and redownloaded their minds into the body. Which seemed totally pointless since cyber conversion destroys the personality and replaces it with a cyber one, ie Cybermen good, kill and convert everyone else.

The Borg in Star Trek wre copied from the cybermen (team admitted it) so underneath its armour a cyberman is not so different looking from a borg, a walking corpse trapped by technology. In fact, a 1960's cyberman story had the cybermats sneaking around a base and injecting people with a virus that would slowly bring their minds under cyberman control.

The Virus caused the victims veins to turn black... Sound like the appearance of a certain star trek race designed in around 1987?

The reason the people of Mondas became Cybermen is their world was dying, and the only way to survive and preserve their cvulture and people was to take the mechnical modification of the body to a new level. Problem was, fuill conversion into cyberman is absolute agony, permanently, physically and spiritually, the body cannot handle the physical pain of all that technology hammered into it, and the human mind cannot handle realising what they are. So as the first total conversions were screaming, going mad, killing themselves, dropping dead, and attacking people in their madness, the surgeons tried removing emotions. That worked. Except now, they were no longer people, they didnt care, feel, love, anything, in order to save their race, all they saved where the physical remains under the technological modifications, their culture, their personailities, their beliefs had died in the prototype conversion chambers. Those who appeared in the 1966 story still had names! their names from their lives before conversion.

 

[The Neon Seal]

Dave, I don't think you quite get what a Cyberman is. Not suprising, because the Cybermen that were shown in the RTD era when Who came back were NOT proper Cybermen

A Cyberman is not a human brain stuck into an Iron Man rip off suit. A complete human body is taken, its limbs replaced with mechanical versions, and its organs replaced with mechnics. It is a human that has been raped by technology and turned into a walking zombie.

A Cyberman doesn't breathe, its lungs have been replaced with mechanical equipment, a Cyberman can operate in the vacuum of space, never mind high up in the air. If you look at Danny Pink, when he removes the faceplate, he has wires and technology drilled and embedded into his skin, that is all over his body, the "handles" of the helmet are likely drilled deep into the brain. And one constant thing with the cybermen, is in their determination to be stronger, better, is they constantly evolve, so their appearance changes, The first Cybermen in 1966, the original first cybermen in the dr who universe, their arms were not replaced by mechnics, their bones were reinforced with plastic and metal, and their hands were still human hands and uncovered, and they did not have helmets, their faces were covered by cloth, behind that cloth will have been wires etc drilling into head/face and their eyes replaced with mechnics. They were just as susceptible to radiation as a human body. Later versions were immune to radiation, but gold could intefere with the mechnics running their mechnical lungs.

And in actual fact, ever since Steven Moffat took over the "old" Cybus design has been long gone. Even though for budget reasons they first appeared still with the C logo, then looking the same but with the C logo gone. Which is why Amelia opens a helmet in stonehenge and finds a human skull, not remains of a brain.

Before gallifrey burned (or now moved to pocket dimension) When a Timelord died their mind was transferred into the Matrix a vast computer system that stored all the sum of timelord knowledge. Missy stole that technology and thus when people were dying on earth she was basically storing a copy of their mind/personality on a hard drive, even though their bodies were rotting. then, the cybermites turned their corpses into cybermen and redownloaded their minds into the body. Which seemed totally pointless since cyber conversion destroys the personality and replaces it with a cyber one, ie Cybermen good, kill and convert everyone else.

The Borg in Star Trek wre copied from the cybermen (team admitted it) so underneath its armour a cyberman is not so different looking from a borg, a walking corpse trapped by technology. In fact, a 1960's cyberman story had the cybermats sneaking around a base and injecting people with a virus that would slowly bring their minds under cyberman control.

The Virus caused the victims veins to turn black... Sound like the appearance of a certain star trek race designed in around 1987?

The reason the people of Mondas became Cybermen is their world was dying, and the only way to survive and preserve their cvulture and people was to take the mechnical modification of the body to a new level. Problem was, fuill conversion into cyberman is absolute agony, permanently, physically and spiritually, the body cannot handle the physical pain of all that technology hammered into it, and the human mind cannot handle realising what they are. So as the first total conversions were screaming, going mad, killing themselves, dropping dead, and attacking people in their madness, the surgeons tried removing emotions. That worked. Except now, they were no longer people, they didnt care, feel, love, anything, in order to save their race, all they saved where the physical remains under the technological modifications, their culture, their personailities, their beliefs had died in the prototype conversion chambers. Those who appeared in the 1966 story still had names! their names from their lives before conversion.

This! Cybermen are augmented zombies in power-armor. Also, the whole thing with the matrix was first introduced in The Deadly Assassin. I feel, to understand some of the end of series 8 you need to know your Doctor Who lore as this story fits the classic series better than most NuWho.

 

[Caledfwlch]

This! Cybermen are augmented zombies in power-armor. Also, the whole thing with the matrix was first introduced in The Deadly Assassin. I feel, to understand some of the end of series 8 you need to know your Doctor Who lore as this story fits the classic series better than most NuWho.

Absolutely - this was an episode that rewarded being a fan of classic in lots of ways, I dont think it particularly made the plot difficult to comprehend for Nu only fans, it was just a few subtle winks to classic fans.

I think most Nu only fans & muggles who watch, will have had no problem with the timelord technology storing peoples personalities and so on, nor the Master being a Woman - Nu who has firmly established Timelords regenerate into new bodies, nothing to say they cant choose to be female, the only thing that likely caused a lot of bewilderment is the appearance of Brigadier Alastair Gordon Lethbridge Stewart. All Nu followers know is the most basic, unless they googled, to them he's just some old army guy the Dr was friends in the old series, the father of Kate, a new character. Nothing in the few mentions he has had, has really hinted at how important a character he was, nor how much Nick Courtney occupies a place in the heart of classic fans.

I met Nick twice in the 90's, and if anything it was even more of a "wow" moment for me than meeting Sly McCoy and Colin Baker.

So yes, the moment when the Doctor salutes CyberBrig, who acknowledges it, then soars off to explode, I did indeed have something in my eye. That is something Moff is really good at, divining things from classic like that, none of us likely ever thought of it, but the idea that the brig wished that just once, his oldest friend would salute him, that felt very right.

 

[Dave]

Dave, I don't think you quite get what a Cyberman is. Not suprising, because the Cybermen that were shown in the RTD era when Who came back were NOT proper Cybermen

Which is why I haven't watched it anymore. There is simply no consistency or continuity. If I understand you then, the whole of the RTD era hasn't happened with these New Cybermen that came from out of the alternative reality Earth? As the RTD era pretty much watered down the Daleks too, I'd be happy to join you in that, but you can't just decided to do that and ignore things because you don't like them. And BTW I've probably seen more Dr. Who than you - I've seen every single episode, just that some were quite a long time ago and my memory doesn't reach that far any more.

 

[The Neon Seal]

Which is why I haven't watched it anymore. There is simply no consistency or continuity. If I understand you then, the whole of the RTD era hasn't happened with these New Cybermen that came from out of the alternative reality Earth? As the RTD era pretty much watered down the Daleks too, I'd be happy to join you in that, but you can't just decided to do that and ignore things because you don't like them. And BTW I've probably seen more Dr. Who than you - I've seen every single episode, just that some were quite a long time ago and my memory doesn't reach that far any more.

What you have to remeber with Cybermen is that there are now two factions. RTD's are from Earth in a parallel universe -- and probably went on to attack Mondas -- while Moffatt's Cybermen are the originals, which came from Mondas and attacked Earth in our universe. Whether these two factions have ever met has not been explained to my knowledge. They also, as has been noted, each have their own style of upgrade -- although the originals are much cooler. The Cybusmen were effectively created by a guy who made the massive mistake of not watching Ghost in the Shell before embarking on creating a means of cybernetically supporting a brain.

 

[Caledfwlch]

Which is why I haven't watched it anymore. There is simply no consistency or continuity. If I understand you then, the whole of the RTD era hasn't happened with these New Cybermen that came from out of the alternative reality Earth? As the RTD era pretty much watered down the Daleks too, I'd be happy to join you in that, but you can't just decided to do that and ignore things because you don't like them. And BTW I've probably seen more Dr. Who than you - I've seen every single episode, just that some were quite a long time ago and my memory doesn't reach that far any more.

Oh, Continuity holds together, thankfully its the beauty of Cybermen. No version of the Cybermen contradicts another. All Moff did is decide that the Lumic Cybermen are now stuck in the parallel world, so any cybes we now meet are from the main who universe.

Original Contuinity from 1966 - Planet Mondas is sailing back to its home system (ours)
These cybermen, whilst still emotionless/logical still hold on to elements of their humanity - they have their human names, like iirc a Cyber Leader called "Krang"
On the journey they split into 2 factions - those who want to stay as they are, and "The Faction" who want to further embrace cybernisation - the Mondans still have human hands for example, the Faction wants robotic.
The Faction leave Mondas
Mondas enters Earth Orbit in 1986, and the events of the 10th Planet go ahead, leading to the destruction of Mondas.
Presumably because ships are faster than an entire world, The Faction get to earth first in approx 1970. Working in cahoots with rogue Millionaire Tobias Vaughn, CEO of International Electromatics, they attempt and fail to invade Earth.

Now, in the Paralel Universe, John Lumic is busy buying up other companies, he buys at some point International Electromatics, and his staff, find in a mothballed warehouse or facility a Cyber Conversion Chamber. The rest is New Series history.

So, it all hangs together - and frankly imho it would have worked much better being set in the main Who universe. But RTD wanted to do his own Cyberman origin story. But Lumic's Cybermen are absolutely not a separate evolution of Cybermen, but on an alternate earth, rather than an alternate mondas - the camera at one point lingers on an old, filthy Internatyional Electromatics sign, which imo makes it clear - Lumics Cybermen are not "new" he is simply reverse engineering found technology.

Where you are right, is the new powers given the Cybes in Nightmare in Silver are too much. I loved the "speed" mode, but the cyber mites and the instant upgrade made them so powerful you need increasingly stupid resolves to stop them - and frankly, having to blow up an entire galaxy like Porridge laments is just stupid.

I love the Cybermen, always have, but in fairness, they were never the A-team of Who enemies, like the Daleks. They are not a galactic threat, they are a local threat to humanity, and whilst being hard to stop, they are stoppable. Even classic who acknowledged this. In Tomb of the Cybermen, they have suffered such catastrophic defeats that the survivors fled back to their tombs on Telos, to await some day in the future when they have been mostly forgotten about and can rise again.

I thought it was really stupid in Death in heaven that they had the cyber mite/nanobot technology. Why that, but not instant upgrade? (frankly imgo, either tech makes them impossible to realistically defeat) Nightmare in Silver at least had the preface that it was set hundreds of thousands of years in the future. But cybes with either ability in the 21st century,makes them so overpowered, you need god buttons, or indeed a handy "box with a switch) to stop them.

 

[The Neon Seal]

Where you are right, is the new powers given the Cybes in Nightmare in Silver are too much. I loved the "speed" mode, but the cyber mites and the instant upgrade made them so powerful you need increasingly stupid resolves to stop them - and frankly, having to blow up an entire galaxy like Porridge laments is just stupid.

I love the Cybermen, always have, but in fairness, they were never the A-team of Who enemies, like the Daleks. They are not a galactic threat, they are a local threat to humanity, and whilst being hard to stop, they are stoppable. Even classic who acknowledged this. In Tomb of the Cybermen, they have suffered such catastrophic defeats that the survivors fled back to their tombs on Telos, to await some day in the future when they have been mostly forgotten about and can rise again.

I thought it was really stupid in Death in heaven that they had the cyber mite/nanobot technology. Why that, but not instant upgrade? (frankly imgo, either tech makes them impossible to realistically defeat) Nightmare in Silver at least had the preface that it was set hundreds of thousands of years in the future. But cybes with either ability in the 21st century,makes them so overpowered, you need god buttons, or indeed a handy "box with a switch) to stop them.

This is where our views diverge. I too hate their instant upgrade ability, but I liked how it took destroying a whole galaxy to stop them as it is a flourish of the Warhammer 40K DNA that can be found at the core of Who. I also like the whole nano conversion thing as it is the logical progression of their own tech -- plus I'm biased as my own fiction deals with such things. I think the Cybermen should be hard to kill, and I think there should be mass battles involving them, but they should only go on such an offensive when numbers are logically stacked in their favor. They are a virus of humanity, and when signs of them are discovered on a planet you better run!

 

[Caledfwlch]

This is where our views diverge. I too hate their instant upgrade ability, but I liked how it took destroying a whole galaxy to stop them as it is a flourish of the Warhammer 40K DNA that can be found at the core of Who. I also like the whole nano conversion thing as it is the logical progression of their own tech -- plus I'm biased as my own fiction deals with such things. I think the Cybermen should be hard to kill, and I think there should be mass battles involving them, but they should only go on such an offensive when numbers are logically stacked in their favor. They are a virus of humanity, and when signs of them are discovered on a planet you better run!

Oh, I absolutely love the concept of having to detonate entire planets to be sure of stopping them, I just thought burning entire galaxies was a bit too much - and why was it all a suprise to the Doctor? He has been much further into the future...

It all felt a bit like they were in a huge rush to make the cybes a real scary threat again after the RTD years and didnt think everything all the way through. This is far in the future, one of Porridge's Imperial anscestors pressed the button of a weapon capable of burning an entire galaxy, yet the disintergrator guns specifically designed to destroy a cyberman only carry a couple of shots and no reloads?

I would love to see another story set in that far future with the "Cyberiad". I actually love the nanobot idea, unlike the nu only fans who screamed it was a Borg rip off - I at least if not saw the complete story (iirc Moonbase is mainly missing?) read the target book as a kid, and so remember them using a virus transmitted by cybermat to bring people under cyber control, even causing dark veins like people turning into Borg.

I think my only issue with 21st century Cybes having the nano tech is it overpowers them as I said in earlier post, what I would do is rather than "cyber mites" rushing around infecting people, I would simply have it necessary for pre cyberiad cybes to touch a person and inject the nanotech. That gives all the horror and threat of the nanotech, but doesnt require unreasonable plot resolves to stop the cybermen without destroying 21st century earth.

I actually really enjoyed death in heaven, and even though he only spoke a few words with the faceplate on, Danni's cyber voice was actually the best cyber voice i have heard in nu who, it had real echoes of the 60's too it.

But the emotion chip stuff was unforgivable. Danny with chip on was clearly never going to attack clara or anyone, he ewas still danny just with no feelings, it was clear that mental processing had failed - just like Stratton and Bates in Attack of the Cybermen, their bodies were converted, but mental processing failed, so even had they no emotions, they still would not have been, mentally, Cybes.

 

[The Neon Seal]

Oh, I absolutely love the concept of having to detonate entire planets to be sure of stopping them, I just thought burning entire galaxies was a bit too much - and why was it all a suprise to the Doctor? He has been much further into the future...

It all felt a bit like they were in a huge rush to make the cybes a real scary threat again after the RTD years and didnt think everything all the way through. This is far in the future, one of Porridge's Imperial anscestors pressed the button of a weapon capable of burning an entire galaxy, yet the disintergrator guns specifically designed to destroy a cyberman only carry a couple of shots and no reloads?

I would love to see another story set in that far future with the "Cyberiad". I actually love the nanobot idea, unlike the nu only fans who screamed it was a Borg rip off - I at least if not saw the complete story (iirc Moonbase is mainly missing?) read the target book as a kid, and so remember them using a virus transmitted by cybermat to bring people under cyber control, even causing dark veins like people turning into Borg.

I think my only issue with 21st century Cybes having the nano tech is it overpowers them as I said in earlier post, what I would do is rather than "cyber mites" rushing around infecting people, I would simply have it necessary for pre cyberiad cybes to touch a person and inject the nanotech. That gives all the horror and threat of the nanotech, but doesnt require unreasonable plot resolves to stop the cybermen without destroying 21st century earth.

I actually really enjoyed death in heaven, and even though he only spoke a few words with the faceplate on, Danni's cyber voice was actually the best cyber voice i have heard in nu who, it had real echoes of the 60's too it.

But the emotion chip stuff was unforgivable. Danny with chip on was clearly never going to attack clara or anyone, he ewas still danny just with no feelings, it was clear that mental processing had failed - just like Stratton and Bates in Attack of the Cybermen, their bodies were converted, but mental processing failed, so even had they no emotions, they still would not have been, mentally, Cybes.

You have a point with Nightmare in Silver. It really wasn't thought through very well -- which is a surprise, seeing as it was written by Gaiman. You can get The Moonbase on DVD -- I have it! It is one of those that they did where the missing episodes were replaced by animation, and it is very well done. You can, annoyingly, get all but one Cyberman story on DVD as I have them all in my collection, and the odd one out is 'The Wheel in Space.' Unless they find a missing recording it will never see the light of day either.

As for Cyber-Danny, the only time I liked him was as a Cyberman.

 

[Caledfwlch]

You have a point with Nightmare in Silver. It really wasn't thought through very well -- which is a surprise, seeing as it was written by Gaiman. You can get The Moonbase on DVD -- I have it! It is one of those that they did where the missing episodes were replaced by animation, and it is very well done. You can, annoyingly, get all but one Cyberman story on DVD as I have them all in my collection, and the odd one out is 'The Wheel in Space.' Unless they find a missing recording it will never see the light of day either.

As for Cyber-Danny, the only time I liked him was as a Cyberman.

One idea of mine is given that the cybes are often on the backfoot, whether retreated to their tombs on Telos or the surviving crew of a crashed ship under london, is to make something they sometimes do, but not always, a standard operating procedure and beef up the concept.

In Tomb whilst everyone is intended to be converted at some point, they target toberman first due to his size and strength, in the 2nd James Cordon one, they target James as his cunning/mental agility appears to make him a good candidate for Cyber Controller material. So why not expand and use that, it makes sense.

Let's have an officer/leadership class that is usually comprised of people specifically targetted and captured for the job. A cybership scanning human media may discover a particular General extremely good at his job, weaving strategy, and a special forces Colonel who excells at ground level tactics, so the cybes send a kidnap squad in, kidnap both, General is converted into a Cyber Controller, or indeed a Planner (I would love to see the Planners return!) whilst the Colonel is converted into a Cyber Leader. The same for kidnapping scientists to convert into technical/science roles.

It is not a new concept, but one that gets forgotten about I feel. In Spare Parts the greatest minds on Mondas were (albeit willingly) converted into the monstrous "Committee". And did you ever notice, the Cyber Leaders in Earthshock and Silver Nemesis especially, never seemed quite "right" they just appeared to have more autonomy than the drone like cybes usually have, and of course were using human emotional "weakness" to manipulate the humnans around them. The Cyberiad itself in Nightmare was clearly a lot more than just a drone hive mind, it actually seemed to have a degree of "emotion"

So lets give a level of autonomy maybe even a degree of emotion to the new specially built officer class, a sort of Cyberman version of the CUlt of Skaro, Cybes able to think out of the cyber box, in order to make use of the skillsets the original human had.