Writing groups - experiences of/thoughts about/requests for?

Jo Zebedee

Aliens vs Belfast.
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As a follow up to the twitter discussion tonight, a thread to capture thoughts. :) i'll tweet it as a follow uo in a day or two.

I've been in 2 groups now, both virtual, but have run out of time and had to run away for now. I find it useful, and doubt I'd be as far ahead as I am now without them and certainly would have struggled to finish the trilogy without their support.

I also have informal critique partners who I'll bother from time to time and theirs is a different type of support but no less important.
 
I've had dealings with about a handful of writer groups and have found that the face to face type are the most productive; but it does not take long before people get to be good buddies and the usefulness of help declines. It seems best to switch around a bit. I also found, though, that giving critiques and looking at what works and doesn't work in a rather esoteric manner as regards my own preferences while reading other works seems to do as much if not more to help me when I'm writing and editing my own work.

One common theme I've found in forums is the people who expect at some point to be able to write with no edits. These are usually the ones who have trouble finishing things because they spend a large amount of time staring at blank pages waiting for all the perfect words to align. While I am willing to concede that there are writers out there who can and have done this; I think that it is a much rarer thing than some would hope.

My best writing advice all around came after I finished and published my first novel and I had someone who took the time to send me an extensive email with their thoughts.

I recall when I was looking for on line forums I chanced across one of my favorite authors web site where he recommended some forums and POD publishers. I sent him a message (not expecting any response) and was surprised to get an email back.

In some short discussions I found that he was of the opinion that forums were good, but he was well beyond that in his writing. I was never sure if he thought I was suggesting that he should benefit from them, but I think it brought home that there are few established authors who will be out there giving advice in the forums-possibly for the same reason.

I think there is much to be had from several books that are out there concerning writing, but the key is to write and while writing it doesn't hurt to have some advice from forums.

One more thing mentioned, while corresponding with the author, was the notion that publishers might object to a person having too much of their work (novel or short stories) exposed on the web and in forums. His response was that he though he knew of some publishers that were anal retentive, but he wasn't all that certain that even they would have the time or inclination to be concerned about what you put on the web. He was more concerned about pirates in general; and he expressed concern that all of his books have been pirated at some time. So he suggested that we should be careful of that, when exposing the entire work to the web.
 
During my MFA program, we could only submit literary fiction for workshop. A few of us in the program decided to start our own writing group outside of class, a genre writing group. Of those first original 5, three are still in the group. (The other two having dropped it over time due to moving away or not having time to write/participate anymore.)

We've cycled new members in and out over the last six years. Again, some of them were on a trial basis and it didn't work out. Others? Well, "life" happened, I guess. But the three core members stayed the same.

I love my writing group. We're at a point now where we know the tone and style of our group-members. We also know where they get lazy or display quirks. Our sessions are very streamlined. We have a page cap of around 50 pages (sometimes more, if someone has a deadline). We exchange writing before we meet and write comments. Then we spend 30 minutes discussing each submission.

For us, what makes it work is that there's an established understanding. When we read a submission, the first thing we all do is try to see what the writer is doing. What are they trying to accomplish. Then, we give feedback to help them make their vision the best it can be.

We mix in positive critique with negative. Not in a congratulatory manner, but in a way that says, "Hey, this right here, you're spot on with your POV." The negative is always constructive or responsive (in a helpful manner).

If there's a section or piece that's really confused some readers, we'll hash it out with the writer and brainstorm with him/her. We're there to HELP them make it the best they can possibly make it. We ask questions. "What do you need for your story? What has to happen in here?"

We don't go overboard on critique. We don't need to. Again, each person gets 30 minutes tops. With four people offering critique, that's less than 10 minutes for each critiquer to talk. (And we always leave time at the end for questions from the writer.)

People who have weeded themselves out:

1. Folks who stop trying. One member was submitting and responding well enough. When she started to read the stories RIGHT THERE in the session (because she forgot), we dropped her. Politely. If you don't have time to give, we don't want to pressure you.

2. People who got hung up on every little detail. Or who went overboard on syntax and grammar. Often, we'll send in 1st drafts and we understand that these are messy. We don't want to waste time on things the writer will catch later.

3. People who are rude when offering critique. You can be diplomatic. It's more constructive.

4. People who talk too much or hog the floor.

For us, the writing group gets 1st drafts and some rewrites. One of my group-members is also a beta-reader, but I have two other beta-readers outside of the group as well.

I refuse to utilize online forums (for the most part). I had a query letter that I put up on an online writing forum once, and got some helpful advice. But, offering up my writing to hundreds of people is like inviting 100 people into your home and asking them to critique your decor. Many might hit on a true issue, but you'll get so many answers that it makes it extremely difficult to wade through it all. People will contradict one another. Others will get nasty.

I'd consider a small virtual group. My writing group has one member in NY now and we didn't want to lose her, so we Skype her in. That's working great. I think I'd want to do Skype or phone conference. I find email exchange to be difficult in regard to maintaining momentum.

I once heard of someone with almost 20 people in their writing group. I don't even know what that looks like other than headache and pain and suffering. We don't go higher than 6. It's counter-productive.
 
I have never written enough to participate in one nor am I experienced enough to be useful to others in one, but it is something I hope to partake in once I am further down the writing path. :)

Awesome comments by those above, quite interesting.
 
Participated in an online group, part of a publisher's website/forum. Like critiques here, but with one big difference.

The people critiquing were not trying to help your writing get better. They were trying to prove you deserved no place in publishing, ever.

A writerly friend, upon learning I had tried there, noted she did not, because the writers critiquing there were akin to a tank full of starving piranhas.

At the Chrons, I know people are trying to help you improve, not abandon your dreams in despair.
 
I think a good writing group can be extremely beneficial. I’ve been a member of the St Albans writing group (Verulam Writers Circle) for some years, and I’m sure that greatly helped me getting published. Since I joined, about 5 members have been published, largely in SF, humour and historical fiction. However, I suspect that a bad writing group wouldn’t help, or might even slow you down.

The main work of the circle is in critique. Manuscripts are read for about 10 minutes, followed by general criticism. Members are encouraged to come with a specific query (“Does the dialogue work?” etc). There can be a problem with people effectively wanting “permission” to continue writing. The group has about 40 members, of whom about 15-20 will come to a meeting. It is not expected that everyone’s work will be read, and work is read usually on a first-come, first-served basis, with exceptions where necessary. This can be a bit rough and ready, but it generally works. The act of critiquing is seen as useful in itself.

There is something useful in reading out loud, because you get a sense for the flow of the words and whether the passage works as a whole that a line-by-line edit sometimes doesn’t reveal. To repeat what others have said: what you’re looking for is constructive criticism. You do meet people who can’t take any criticism, or who arrive expecting to be praised as geniuses. They tend to either change their tune or leave. You have to learn not just to take criticism, but when not to take it. Sometimes, people get the wrong end of the stick or just wish that you’d written something entirely different.

I think it’s important for writing groups to have one eye on getting published, even if some of the members are just writing for pleasure. That level of professionalism is important. I’ve been to others where it’s been mutual back-slapping, which isn’t very productive. I would also be wary of groups where one member is much more successful (or just louder!) than the others, and considers himself a final arbiter, or where everyone is of the same age and background, which limits the range of ideas that will appear. I’ve never used an online group (apart from here, which is probably different), but I’m not sure that I’d want to. For one thing, I wouldn’t know who I was dealing with, and for another, people seem to feel that they have a licence to be weird when online.
 
I have not been a member of a writer's group although I am on the list for the Walthamstow Writers Group which meet every Monday. Mostly that's because I can't make it on a Monday due to training, but also because reading a lot of drafts would be hard for me to do justice to. But! I certainly think they're valuable ad I like the set-up in Toby Frost's writing group where you read the draft for ten minutes whilst in the meeting.

My learning has mostly come from all those here. And (okay, get ready for me to bang on about it again) the writing challenges here; they offer so much value in tweaking your existing skills, building news ones and becoming familiar with the whole climate of being an author/writer.

One thing I would probably flag up as important is choosing an environment that reflects your genre as Zombiewife had joined in her MFA. There are a lot of commonalities in all writing styles, but it really helps if someone understands the genre you write in. I've tried to find horror writer's groups or forums but they are nowhere near as robust and valuable as the community here on Chrons, so I remain here (not that I'd leave) living in the tower like the family embarrassment, snaffling up tips and tricks when you all let things slip... :D

pH
 
My first writing group never got off the ground; we met maybe twice in four months. Then I went to a writing conference (SCBWI, for children's and YA) and met the members of my current group. Only two of us knew each other previously, but we have a great group vibe and also write at around the same level, which helps tremendously as it really is a peer group.

We try and meet every week for 2hrs at the café of the local Barnes and Noble (suppliers of cake and food!), but we also have an open drop-in-and-write session on Wednesdays where we often meet up, too. We don't read material before, unless it's a larger chunk or a full beta. If new material (say, a chapter or two) we read out loud. But we're pretty fluid; sometimes, instead of a work sample, a member might bring a scene or concept they're struggling with for a group brainstorm session, or a query. And sometimes one of us just wants to talk over editor or agent feedback (we have two agented members with upcoming debuts in 2015/16).

It's working pretty well so far. I feel my own work is stronger from having my group's feedback and from reading their work, too. I'm the only one writing strictly genre, although we all write YA and MG and there are certainly fantastical elements in the other's work. I haven't felt this gets in the way; after all, my group partners are perfectly good judges of plot, setting, characters and pacing even if not really genre readers.

That said, my work has also definitely benefitted from participation here on the forum. I don't have a virtual writing group, but there are members I've exchanged work with (and would happily do so again), and they complete the process giving me the POV of genre readers and writers. I consider all my Chrons betas worth their weight in gold. :)

And like Phyre said, the challenges are a fabulous learning tool!
 
Must have the cake! We had a great little place to meet with cake and pastries and amazing coffee. But they shut down. Now it's a smaller coffee shop with a back room that we can reserve. But no cake. (Sad face)
 
I was in the audience at writing panel at a convention. One lady mentioned a writing group she belonged to that was very exclusive and had a waiting list. A gentleman (brilliant, entertaining, energetic, articulate, in the process of becoming famous) mentioned that he was going to be teaching a one-day class on writing fantasy, in a few weeks. I had sold one book but it was a year or two before it was going to be published and I knew I still had a lot to learn, so considering the gentleman's qualifications and because it sounded like any class taught by him would be tremendously enjoyable, I wanted to attend. As soon as the panel announced they would take questions, my hand shot up, and when they acknowledged me I looked at the gentleman and said, "How can we find out more?" The lady somehow assumed I was speaking to her and said, "See me after the panel."

I was too polite to tell her I hadn't been talking to her, and I did want to get up there to the table and get information about the class. So first I went up and spoke with her (keeping an eye on him to make sure he didn't get away). And that's how I ended up on the waiting list for a writer's group I wasn't entirely sure I wanted to join. (I did get a chance to talk to the gentleman, find out about his class, which I subsequently attended when the day arrived, and it was just as good as I thought it would be!)

But after I wandered off from the table, another lady came up to me, handed me her card, and said that she and her friends had a writing group that met one Wednesday a month, and would I be interested. She was very nice, we had a brief conversation, and I said that yes I was interested in her writing group.

So I started going to their meetings. They were all writers at the intermediate level: very knowledgable, very enthusiastic and dedicated, but none of them published yet. They were fun, the meetings were lively, and I found their critiques valuable.

After a few months, I received a call from the lady on the panel, saying that a couple of people in her group had moved away and I was at the top of the waiting list. Congratulations! Since her group was made up largely of professional writers I thought, well, I could belong to two writer's groups, and maybe see which one I liked best.

So I went to a meeting of her group. Obviously, since I had just joined, no one was critiquing anything of mine. But I was horrified by the way they were critiquing each other's stories. They were the kind of group that prided themselves on how they ripped into each other's work, tore it to shreds, and left the remains bleeding. They were sarcastic and outright insulting to each other. Tempers flared and at one point things became rather nasty. I sat there thinking, "Why am I here? I miss being with my friends." (This, by the way, was when I realized that the people in the other group were my friends.) I knew that group was not for me, no matter how many professionals were in it. It seemed to me that people were trying to score points and be clever, instead of constructive.

I knew myself well enough to know that in that kind of atmosphere I would soon become as snippy and sarcastic as they were. I knew I would be good at that, as clever and cutting as any of them, but that was not and is not the person I want to be. (Although sometimes she claws her way to the surface.) And would I learn anything of value at their meetings, and whatever I might get out of it, if I did get anything out of it, would it be worth feeling wound-up and angry afterwards? It seemed to me that newer writers, with less confidence in themselves and their writing, could be crushed to a fine powder by a group like that, and possibly give up writing altogether. But you know, after the dust settled, everyone seemed to get along just fine, and no hard feelings. They all seemed to enjoy -- or at least think it worthwhile -- drawing each other's blood, and being scratched to the bone themselves. Not for me. I decided they could elevate someone else from their waiting list.

I went back to the other writer's group, the one where the criticism was honest but constructive. I stayed with them for several years, learned a lot, made wonderful friends. The critiques were always balanced (besides telling someone what they were doing wrong, we made a point of telling them what they were doing right, so they could keep on doing it) and the members were supportive of each other's aspirations and efforts. I think that the hours I spent with them were some of the best times of my life.

The right group can be invaluable. The wrong group (for you) can be a disaster. Some groups, either because they are too soft or too vicious, might be a disaster for anyone.
 
The right group can be invaluable.

I've been in and out of writing groups. What Teresa - and in fact everyone else has outlined is important. Any old writing group is a good start, but as your experience grows so does the need for more in depth/responsible/active feedback. Most of the groups I have been a part of ceased to exist through lack of interest. (Christmas and summer holidays can be a killer.) Being the youngest in one is twice as terrifying. (No longer the case however :D )

I've been in groups where that shiny-eyed look happens before I've finished introducing "me" let alone started on the work. I've been in groups where no one wanted to hear anyone else's suggestions for improvement. I've been in groups that had no time for reading and sharing work other than that produced on the night. The only thing I came away from a Face to Face writing group would be confidence and the knowledge of what parts worked well. This is very important. If you doubt all of your work you'll go around in circles.

It took being pushed into a degree course by my husband for me to discover the flaws, and wrestle with them. Most of my bad habits I can spot now. (Most? I am sure there are plenty more I am too naive to see as yet!) Writing for certification is completely different than writing your own words for your own reasons. You have hoops to jump in a certain order. Assessors have opinions and bias not to mention they don't always have an understanding of the genre your shooting for.

30 or so people started on that writing degree. Four of us will graduate. While some have left due to life issues, many disliked the range of material we covered, others couldn't see how it would help their dream. You only get what you put into a thing. I would never have thought poetry would help me with word usage, or writing a film script improves your take on dialogue. Still, the classes were much like a higher level of writing group, as no one there had any intention of "one-upping" anyone else. I can look back and cringe at my earlier work. I can look at my work with a more honest and critical eye. It doesn't get everything but it helps to keep my work 'mine' until I am ready to share.

Festival workshops are also a good place for feedback. It might not be run by a genre author, or other SFF knowing person, but these events do cover dialogue, worldbuilding, word use, and all the other tools every author needs. Less commitment, and you'll gain an idea of how a face to face writing group works.

On the other side of the coin, I haven't been active in many of the forums I haunt. I read other peoples posts and learn that way. I did enter a pitch contest ... my purpose not actually to gain a contract but to learn. I wouldn't recommend that path unless you have a thick skin and your work is ready for the world.
 
I am a very new and very bewildered president of my local writing group, and I think I have a tough task ahead. It is a lovely group of people, has been running for about twenty or thirty years and has a mix of writers in terms of abilities. Some are there mostly for the social aspects and because it is a lovely group of people but there is a newer group that want to write so we are working on trying to include both lots of interests.

We have had some author talks and they have been good, but to be honest I've found the best meetings have been when members of the group participate. One amazing lady did some character games and I learned more than I expected to from it. We've done speaking exercises etc

I guess I'll have updates to this as we start the new season on March 4th.
 
Cake. That's all I have to say.

Except the beauty of brainstorming with like-minded individuals face-to-face cannot be bettered. I'm in a tiny writing group (3, including me!) and I can't tell you how many ideas have come out of discussions of each other's work. We try and meet sort-of monthly, and submit whatever we need help on/comment on/feedback on, beforehand - then dissect it honestly, and our discussions always bring out things you'd never, ever, find on your own. Then we eat cake. Home-made cake. I'm getting better at that, as well...

The University writing group I was in for 18 months when I did my MA, was a different kettle of fish: it split into two groups - those who wanted feedback and those who gave it. The givers were opinionated, wanted to hear the sound of their own voices, and nothing more. When I gave detailed critique and feedback to one person she thanked me and said "I don't want to work on that piece, I just thought I'd see what people thought of it".

I think, kiss a few bowls of frogspawn, and find a bowl of princes in the end. Better still, be a tadpole and invite other tadpoles in. Any toads will soon be spotted if you start small and grow, and they'll probably get too big (headed?) for the group, and leave, anyway...
 
Honestly, I think these things are often quite organic. Anyway, now there are more responses, I'll go into mine in more detail (I didn't want to hog the thread until it filled up a bit.)

My first writing group was a group of four chronners, myself included, and it was a virtual group. We all had wips ready for review, and we worked through two segments a week, so had a review each every fortnight. It was a terrific group, with a good mix of support and critique, and they form most of the writing friends I'm still closest to. However, there were difficulties: the virtual element is good, but it's not as good as brainstorming. One of the group members lives close enough to me to allow for infrequent lunch meetings if work takes me into the right neck of the woods, and it was a throwaway comment from that member (who had good knowledge of the field I was writing about) that gave me the central premise of my current wip. I doubt if the same conversation would have come up in emails. (But maybe it would have.)

Another difficulty, and what stopped us operating as a formal writing group in the end, I think, was pacing. I had a much bigger output than the others in the group, and more time to crit etc, and was getting frustrated at the lack of (a very reasonable, as it happens) pace, which, in turn, put pressure on others to do more than they had time to. Also, some of us weren't working on active wips for a while, so there was an imbalance in terms of what each got from it.

Having said that, we operate more informally now and if I have a burning question about the projects they worked on, or if its just cake needed, then the group come back together briefly and advise. I think that works well at the moment.

The second group is a local group. So far, I would say it's not entirely working - one person lost a bit of interest etc etc. But we're giving it a second try of the whip now with new members and we'll see what comes out of it.
 
Thanks for the input everyone. I have been toying with the idea of joining a writer's group and wondering which one would be best (if at all). It seems that writer's groups, from reading the posts here, are really only useful for emotional support and possibly confidence building. I can imagine that if I join my local group (full of professional writers) I would get ripped to shreds just for the audacity of attending and yet if I a group of inexperienced writers, the advice and feedback may not be of any use, given that it may well be incorrect or poorly given. Writing tends to be very subjective at the best of times and I think other than pointing out plot flaws or weak characters, it is not likely that good critique can be given.

So I think my conclusion is not to get stressed out about not being in a writer's group but concentrate on writing instead. Practice makes perfect, they say, so I will just keep practicing.
 
It seems that writer's groups, from reading the posts here, are really only useful for emotional support and possibly confidence building.

This isn't true at all, in my experience.

I can imagine that if I join my local group (full of professional writers) I would get ripped to shreds just for the audacity of attending and yet if I a group of inexperienced writers, the advice and feedback may not be of any use, given that it may well be incorrect or poorly given.

You might be right that a well-established group might not have time for someone inexperienced. It depends on the group. But I think a group made up of inexperienced writers might be very useful. Even if the other writers lack the experience at first to be able to pin down why something does or does not work, being in a group at least leads to people trying to figure it out, and that's when the learning happens. It's the willingness to think hard about each other's work that counts.

Think of it like a D&D party. You're right that a high-level party might not want a noob along (though if they do have him, and keep him from harm, he'll likely go up in levels pretty fast). But a low-level party can still go adventuring. No one gets to slay dragons before they've spent a long time offing kobolds, after all.

So I think my conclusion is not to get stressed out about not being in a writer's group

It's certainly a good idea not to get stressed about it!
 

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