Is comma use changing? (For the worse, naturally)

[HareBrain]

I've increasingly noticed commas in places where I wouldn't put them. Today I found two in the space of five minutes in my morning internet trawl.

From my local BBC weather forecast:

Any remaining wintry showers, near Kent will die out by the afternoon.

From this Guardian article:

Little noticed in the debate on how Europe should deal with Russia, looms a big anniversary

That second one is perhaps borderline (it would probably be cleaner with an additional comma after "noticed"), but this kind of thing no longer seems unusual in professionally produced media. It seems that rather than inserting a comma where there would be a pause if spoken aloud, there's a perception that commas should be placed simply to break up text where there are too many words in a row.

Has anyone else noticed this?

 

[Jo Zebedee]

@alchemist will love this thread - his fav beta comment us to drop commas!
The first is wrong to my eyes, the second I could live with.

 

[Venusian Broon]

The first one must be a typo, it would sound odd spoken as well!

However you've now got me comma spotting in the the Grauniad, HB. If I find anything I shall report back

 

[thaddeus6th]

These are just people being wrong.

The Guardian is notorious for typos (hence the Grauniad nickname), and the BBC can have a weird view of grammar as well (the overuse of inverted commas in headlines is irksome).

 

[Ursa major]

I thought that the change was that fewer commas were being used, to the extent that sometimes one has to slow down one's reading to make sure one has understood what the writer meant, because it wasn't obvious.

But whichever is better -- more commas or fewer -- has little to do with using commas wrongly, as has happened in the two example in the first post: in the first example, a comma has been added when it should not have been; in the second, one has been omitted.)

 

[Kerrybuchanan]

There was a piece on radio four just this morning about the poor understanding of grammar. Commas were not on the menu, but use of less vs fewer, etc. was discussed.

 

[Mouse]

These are just people being wrong.

This. Except I would've used the word 'stupid.'

It seems loads of journalists haven't a clue nowadays. People who you'd think would be clever enough to know basic English just don't. For example, my solicitor's emails are horrific. I feel like mailing him back with corrections. How can this person be a solicitor when he doesn't even know how an apostrophe works?

 

[Kerrybuchanan]

Oh, don't start me on that one, Mouse!

Poor grammar and even spelling in legal documents is one of the things that winds me up completely. I had it hammered into me as a teenager, when I worked for my Dad doing office work in the summer, that a misplaced comma could cost him thousands. I'm not saying I'm perfect, because I am definitely not, but I'm not sending out legal documents.

 

[Kylara]

Eugh. I agree with Mouse "stupid" infuriates me. Especially as I have just got work back from being marked by an American who has scribbled all over my grammar and inserted weird and wrong grammar bits. Infuriating. Fair enough not liking the style, but the grammar is correct. Also English uni, so you shouldn't be marking me down for my preference of English words and grammar because you don't like them.

Also one (American) seminar leader insists that 'til is a word. It is not. Until is till with a prefix. Without the prefix you use till. not 'til. You can't remove a prefix and not use the rest of the word. till is not an affix -_- but apparently the mangled word 'til is acceptable in North America.

GRAMMAR ANGER

 

[HareBrain]

I now want to read about Grandma Anger.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Well, being the old-fashioned girl that I am, I use lots of commas. But even I would not have used that one in the first sentence, and I have my doubts about the one in the second.

Edit -- Grandma Anger: that would be me on a bad day.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

the overuse of inverted commas in headlines is irksome

Seems like EVERY headline on news website has gratuitous single quotes. WHY!!!!!!!
The BBC web site is picture and video heavy and makes my grammar and punctuation look good. I go to websites to READ! not for a picture book or videos (there is the TV for that).
Video is so slow compared to text. Also you need sound.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

solicitor when he doesn't even know how an apostrophe works?

Perhaps he is from a long line of greengrocer's.
(that's an ironic apostrophe in case any one here is a greengrocer).

 

[thaddeus6th]

This reminds me of the story on the news about controversy regarding plans to put up a sign denoting Hitler's Walk. It's near a village in Cornwall, and was mockingly named after a 1930s Council member who was an officious little, er, Hitler.

I must admit, I was more offended by the absent apostrophe in the sign pictured than the name.

 

[Ursa major]

To some extent, I can understand the BBC putting video clips up: the BBC produces television channels and so has ready-made content to show on their website(s).

The Grauniad, by contrast, is not a TV company and yet some of its "articles" have been lengthy videos (up to half-an-hour long ) with no accompanying text. Why?

 

[The Judge]

People who you'd think would be clever enough to know basic English just don't. For example, my solicitor's emails are horrific. I feel like mailing him back with corrections. How can this person be a solicitor when he doesn't even know how an apostrophe works?

Very easily. The profession isn't full of nicely educated people from good prep and minor public schools, y'know, with double first from Oxbridge. You're more likely to find a scholastic CV of inner city dumping ground comp, and a poor third from a former polytechnic, with no hinterland of books. And that's if it is the solicitor him/herself actually dealing with the case, of course, as opposed to a wholly unqualified so-called para-legal (ie a bright secretary). There's little money in small private provincial practice any more**, and as with all things, when the money leaves, so do those with better qualifications and skills. Added to that an horrendous case load, because conveyancing now is bulk work, and a need to get stuff off the desk so no time for revision of what's been written, and it's not surprising no end of mistakes get made. Be thankful if the errors are just in grammar.

And even if the solicitor knows her stuff, her secretary is often obtuse -- in my last firm, one secretary was not allowed to use apostrophes as she never got them right, and they had to be added by hand afterwards when the letters were signed.

** yes, I know what the public perception is. Believe me, it was wrong when I was practising, and it's worsened since then.


Regarding commas, I hadn't noticed that so much, but I shall now be on the hunt for them and write pithy notes to the BBC when I find them. But when a so-called quality newspaper can allow one of its reporters in a piece of reportage (OK, a piece of reworking of a press release/copying what another agency/paper/TV news has already said) to use "He was sat" then we know the barbarians are at the gate.

Speaking of which, I see some poor bloke has been correcting Wikipedia entries changing "comprised of" to "comprising" or "composed of" and people are getting narked because, like, it's all the same, innit, and it's just his opinion, and how dare he correct them... (More power to his elbow!)

 

[Venusian Broon]

Poor grammar and even spelling in legal documents is one of the things that winds me up completely. I had it hammered into me as a teenager, when I worked for my Dad doing office work in the summer, that a misplaced comma could cost him thousands.

As evidenced this week:

http://money.aol.co.uk/2015/01/29/spelling-mistake-by-companies-house-ruins-124-year-old-family-bu/

 

[Kerrybuchanan]

Exactly.

 

[Cat's Cradle]

I suspect there is another issue here that (I think) hasn't been mentioned...certainly the writing for news sites is often terrible these days (CNN, BBC, etc), but I suspect another huge contributing factor to the plethora of typos we see nowadays online, and in print, is a dearth of copy editing...even copy editors. I think every single news organization on the planet has gone through dramatic cutbacks in staff over the last 10-15 years...I read last year that one of the major news agencies in the U.S. had fired all of its professional photographers, and was switching to having the writers take their own digital photos in the field for their stories (or to using stock photos in storage). I haven't specifically read that copy editors had been targeted for downsizing, but I think it's clear that copy proofing is either not being done, or perhaps often is being done solely by the newswriters themselves. (I would guess that a lot of news stories at major news sites are being written by freelancers too, who perhaps are paid for the volume of their work, and not for the polishing of it.) Just my thoughts, and I may be absolutely wrong!

 

[Michael Colton]

This is actually a topic I have been wondering about. Is there a good resource for comparing comma use between the States and the UK? Because I tend to see UK folks omit an awful lot of commas I would use. I have had UK folks correct my comma use and then I go back to some of my American style guides (Chicago, AP, whatever) and could not find anything wrong with it.

Obviously, not in the examples this thread was started with. Those were written by a weirdo.

Edit: Also, I would not bat an eye when seeing 'til. Whereas 'till' would confuse me as I would wonder why someone is suddenly tilling.