POV versus Author's Voice

[Teresa Edgerton]

There is a difference between the traditional omniscient POV (not in favor with genre readers at the moment) and something that looks like a close third POV ... until suddenly the writer hops to another character's head, which for some readers can be jolting, and certainly undoes the advantages the writer started out with using the closer POV.

There are advantages to an omniscient POV, just as there are -- different -- advantages to a serial close third person POV (serial because it changes between scenes or chapters). I think problems arise when writers don't know the difference and try to have it both ways.

 

[FibonacciEddie]

(Plus I've found another published author .... Queen's English.

All comments really gratefully received, I suspect it comes down to the fact that a little "technical" head hopping won't ruin a great book as long as the reader doesn't get thrown out of the story/moment.

Could we go as far to say 'the reader is always right.' ... ?

Given I am on 1st Draft, I will probably copy Joe Abercrombie (maybe not word for word...)

thanks all - I have learned something - got a decent link to more stuff - and realised that I was not missing an easy answer

back to the grindstone

 

[FibonacciEddie]

... I think problems arise when writers don't know the difference and try to have it both ways.

I am definitely now in the Serial Close 3rd Person camp.

 

[M Harold Page]

My new WIP has three "big" characters.

Working in 3rd Person Close

Each of the three gets Chapters/Scenes in which the story is set from their POV.

There are obvious parts of the narrative that would change for a particular POV
- which aspects of a scene are noticed (i.e., Character A notices people; Character B notices weapons; Character C notices smells)
- how other character's behaviours are interpreted or described
Char A (The guard, resplendent in his uniform marched in immediately)
Char B (Within moments, the town enforcer arrived, weapons brandished)

There are other bits which wouldn't change
(mostly the case - not always) Any dialogue should be created to reflect the character speaking it.

My question is... am I over thinking... how far do people go?

Could you have a Char POV in which adjectives were mostly omitted to help reinforce the mechanical nature of the Character in POV?
Could you have a Char POV in which grammar was deliberately incorrect when in Narrative/Descriptive mode to show that the Character was ill-educated?

I worry that by over-thinking the POV for each Chapter that my overall pitch/rhythm/words will not feel consistent and the book may become hard to read.

any thoughts?

(or recommended reading?)

thanks

FibE

That's how I do it:

[Character Action][World Action from Character POV]

As for books, PM me and I'll send you a review copy of mine. (Not that you need it.)

 

[Dennis E. Taylor]

??? That's what I've always assumed head hopping was as in described here: http://www.advancedfictionwriting.com/blog/2014/04/30/head-hopping-fiction-writing/

Randy sez: Let’s define terms. “Head-hopping” is the practice of switching point-of-view characters within a single scene.

3rd Omni and head-hopping are a bit different. Here's an article on Omni: http://www.scribophile.com/academy/using-third-person-omniscient-pov

Head-hopping is when it gets out of control. I think with Omni, you have to maintain a certain distance from the characters, and maybe be a little more 'telly' with internals rather than quoting thoughts.

 

[Nick B]

I am readin Die Trying, Lee Child's second Jack Reacher novel at the moment and unlike the first, which is in first person, this one is in multiple third and he jumps often between several pov's during single chapters and it works just fine, the tensim is good.
Unfortunately I'm having to read it on the kobo app on my phone and the formatting is horrible.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Head-hopping is when it gets out of control.

I've always presumed "head-hopping" is just a reference to Omniscient POV. If you apply a qualitative statement that divides "Omniscient" from "head-hopping" then the entire definition becomes completely subjective and useless in technical terms.

 

[MWagner]

I think head-popping is more distracting the closer the character POV. Older fiction, when omniscient third-person POV was the standard, was not nearly as close in POV as modern fiction. You might dip into a character's thoughts now and then, but you rarely had the intense, tight, 'living in the skin' POV of modern fiction. So you don't get head-popping in Dickens, or even in James Clavell. More of a floating above all the characters, with an occasional dip into interior dialog. Today, readers expect to feel every thought and emotion of the POV character, so the transitions between characters are much more jarring. And modern writers, accustomed to that close POV style, don't have a light enough hand to pull off omniscient POV with multiple characters in a scene or chapter.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

I think head-popping is more distracting the closer the character POV. Older fiction, when omniscient third-person POV was the standard, was not nearly as close in POV as modern fiction. You might dip into a character's thoughts now and then, but you rarely had the intense, tight, 'living in the skin' POV of modern fiction. So you don't get head-popping in Dickens, or even in James Clavell. More of a floating above all the characters, with an occasional dip into interior dialog. Today, readers expect to feel every thought and emotion of the POV character, so the transitions between characters are much more jarring. And modern writers, accustomed to that close POV style, don't have a light enough hand to pull off omniscient POV with multiple characters in a scene or chapter.

Exactly. You've summed it all up perfectly.

And Brian, the difference between head-hopping and an omniscient POV that is done correctly is a question of degree, and not so much subjective as misunderstood by writers who are still trying to learn their craft. Once you grasp the difference, it is easy enough to tell them apart.

 

[Ursa major]

In a way, writing (very) close third person is easier (at least for the aspiring writer) than getting the balance right in omniscient points of view, in the sense that it's somewhat easier to describe how it should be done correctly.

To simplify: it's very like first person but using third person verbs and replacing 'I' by the PoV character's name/title/whatever (and the equivalent he/she**). So unless the PoV character can read minds, there shouldn't be any thoughts in the narrative other than those of the PoV character's.


** - Or it/they, as appropriate (not usually necessary outside SFF).

 

[TheDustyZebra]

Head-hopping, to me, is when you are writing in a particular character's POV and include something that that character couldn't possibly know about what the other character is thinking.

***
He charged through the doorway, covered in blood, sword at the ready. I drew my sword. "What do you want?" I asked.

"You know what I want," he said, wondering where he'd left the grocery list.

***

 

[Ronald T.]

I find it distracting and intrusive when an author uses a strong "head-hopping" style of writing, often referred to as Third Person Omniscient POV. It doesn't matter who does it...Stephen King or anyone else. It's a pothole in the road, and it jars me out of the story.

I have no problem with changing POV within a chapter or a scene, as long as it is well marked: a skipped line, a solid line an inch or two long, or a series of asterisks.

But when there are no indications of any kind, it's as if the author is saying to me, as the reader, that what I'm inserting here is of little value -- certainly not worth it's own segment -- but I want you to pretend it is. It never works for me, no matter how well it's done.

It seems that if a different POV is worthy of a place in the story, it's worthy of its own segment.

Just my POV.

 

[Denise Tanaka]

My interpretation of your original question is that you're asking when to choose which character's POV if you have multiples and shift throughout a novel-length narrative?

I ran into that problem when writing the climactic "reveal" scene of my SP novel currently languishing in obscurity on Amazon. Throughout the book, I bounced back-and-forth between 2 POV characters because they were conveniently in 2 different geographic locations. Each one observed different events and had opposite opinions about a shared past event. My problem hit the wall when, in the climactic scene, the 2 of them arrive at the same place. They interact with a third character who has secrets to reveal. Originally, I had character #1 observe C#2 and C#3 having a telepathic dialogue, but my writer's group pointed out that it felt too emotionally distant.

I rewrote the scene from the POV of C#2, and thus was born my rule of thumb: a story/scene should be told from the POV of the person most invested in it. I don't want to hear from the witness -- I want to hear from the person who is in the middle of it all. Who gets hurt vs. who just watches him/her get hurt?

 

[ZombieWife]

My new WIP has three "big" characters.

Working in 3rd Person Close

Each of the three gets Chapters/Scenes in which the story is set from their POV.

There are obvious parts of the narrative that would change for a particular POV
- which aspects of a scene are noticed (i.e., Character A notices people; Character B notices weapons; Character C notices smells)
- how other character's behaviours are interpreted or described
Char A (The guard, resplendent in his uniform marched in immediately)
Char B (Within moments, the town enforcer arrived, weapons brandished)

There are other bits which wouldn't change
(mostly the case - not always) Any dialogue should be created to reflect the character speaking it.

My question is... am I over thinking... how far do people go?

Could you have a Char POV in which adjectives were mostly omitted to help reinforce the mechanical nature of the Character in POV?
Could you have a Char POV in which grammar was deliberately incorrect when in Narrative/Descriptive mode to show that the Character was ill-educated?

I worry that by over-thinking the POV for each Chapter that my overall pitch/rhythm/words will not feel consistent and the book may become hard to read.

any thoughts?

(or recommended reading?)

thanks

FibE

I think this is a great question. IMHO, I see an author's own style in a new POV (e.g. GRRM) but I also see some of the character in there as well. Just read a Sansa chapter VS a Tyrion chapter and you'll see how naive Sansa is VS Tyrion's very sharp observations and judgments.

I'm of the opinion that there must be cohesion between the chapters and the POVs and I usually assume that is the overall authorial "style." I don't imagine you want it to feel like different people wrote each POV section.

 

[FibonacciEddie]

.... and I usually assume that is the overall authorial "style." I don't imagine you want it to feel like different people wrote each POV section.

wise words
I will use this advice to steer