Fantasy Quest type story

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Ray McCarthy

Sentient Marmite: The Truth may make you fret.
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The Mid West (of Ireland)
Some notes here:
http://www.sffchronicles.com/threads/547172/page-29#post-1892860

Chapter 1: Urchins
It was early morning and Barans had just finished setting up his stall when he saw the two street urchins come over and stare at the food.

"Show me your coin," said Barens, the stall holder, "before you even think of touching!"

"Ain't got none," said Kevlin, "me and my brother's starving."

"You should be in the Dalrinat City Institute for the Poor."

"It's full," said Kevlin, "anyways, it's like slavery, we'd never leave. I don't want to end buried in their cabbage patch."

"Where's your parents?"

"Me mum was a Doxie and two days ago someone strangled her."

"I'm Barens," he said, "what are your names?"

"I'm Kevlin and this here, my younger brother is Meg ... Meggels."

"Either your mother was very inadequate or you've been on the street a lot longer than two days. Meggles doesn't much look like you either."

"Maybe we has different dads."

"Meggels?"

"He don't really talk, Mister Barens," explained Kevlin, "You know, upset about it all."

Barens peered at 'Meggels'. He had his head bowed and a ragged sun hat. He'd bet good coin that the supposed younger brother was an Elf girl, maybe even older than Kevlin. No regular Dalrinat Street urchin would be taking care of an Elf.

"Would you like some sausage left over from last night?"

He produced it from his bag and cut it in half. He set the parts on the table near the back of his wagon.

"Thanks!" said Kevlin and wolfed it down.

'Meggels' just stared at it.

"Perhaps Meggels would prefer a stale bread roll from last night?"

He set it out and it was snatch and quickly eaten.

"Thanks," said Kevlin.

"It's going to get busy in a short while," he said, "go and wash in the Wagon and you can help serve. I'm lacking an assistant just at the minute. If you are any good, then I'll give you some lunch."

"What about later?" said Kevlin. "I can count and read, so I can help serve. Meggels can tidy and restock?"

"We'll discuss later when it's later."

Mysteriously Kevlin spoke politely and properly to the customers dropping the street accent and grammar, which had sounded a bit dubious to Barens. Perhaps Kevlin had run away from somewhere, maybe there would be a reward. But the silent Elf girl was a puzzler. He kept half an eye on Kevlin, but he was competant at serving, weighing, reading shopping lists of servants, and counting the coins. Trade was brisk as he was well known and had a good reputation. Tomorrow he would be back in his own shop in the nearby town of Horlinsk. Once a week he came for market day, the evening before, to sell his preserves (jams and pickles), sausages, cured meats, nuts, dried fungi and sweetmeats. He began to think maybe he was wrong as Meggels brought out more meat products from the wagon. Perhaps just a strange girl or very odd boy and not an elf at all. They ate lunch as they worked, though Meggels brewed tea for them. Meggles ate little, and again nothing with meat or dairy. Kevlin obviously enjoyed his sausage and cheese in a bread stick.

It was dusk. Soon the very few oil lamps would be lit. Quickly they packed up.

"What now?"

"Do you want to come and work for me in Horlinsk?" said Barens

"Maybe if Meggles can come and wants to."

"Meggles can come," he said, "as I'm short of staff. I buy the nuts and fungi from Elves of course. Either of you speak any Elvish languages?"

"When do we go?" said Kevlin, ignoring the question.

"First Light," said Barens. "I'll loan you a coulple of blankets and you can sleep under the wagon. Then the livery stable boy will be here at dawn with the horses."

Barens fervently hoped that Meggles was an Elf and could help as his partner was the only person he knew that could negotiate in Elvish and had managed to fall off his horse and break his neck. He'd always been clumsy. The special underground fungus and the choice nuts from the Elves was a nice extra bit of profit with no actual extra work. Of course both was in theory seasonal supplies, but they kept well. It would be the season soon enough, summer was waning.

Kevlin helped him harness the beasts the next morning. Meggles just watched.

Now, another little test Barens thought ...

"Would either of you like to ride up front or in the back?" said Barens.

"I'd love to sit on the board and watch you drive," said Kevlin, "but Meggles didn't sleep so well, he'd like to lie down in the back if possible?"

"Fine," he said.

Either Kevlin wasn't running away from anyone likely to see him here, or he'd forgotten to be stealthy.

They didn't talk on the three hour journey, though occasionally Barens pointed out a landmark, or a wild animal and tried to start a conversation a few times. Kevlin obviously wasn't in the mood for conversation.

Eventually as they came near the town gate Barens insisted.

"Kevlin," he said, "I can't take you on as an employee without knowing a bit more. What's the truth? You're no Doxie's child, you're no street kid either."

"I can't speak for Meggles," said Kevlin, "Unfortunately my mother was the posher kind of Doxie, it was rather longer ago than I suggested. Meggles and I have been helping each other out."

The guard at the gate recognised Barens but insisted on papers anyway.

"Who's the boy?"

"My new Apprentice."

"Mister Barens was kind enough to hire me in Dalrinat after a try out," said Kevlin. "I'm Kevlin Kolrinos of Dalrinat."

"I guess that's OK then."

They passed in and turned off the main street then into the back yard of Barens establishment, a small meat processing building, stores, stables and shop on the main street with accommodation above.

Kevlin managed the beasts and rubbed them down. Meggles helped the assistant unload what was left in the wagon and they backed it into a store.

"Right," said Barens, "Breakfast and some answers."

"Tell him," said Meggles.

They sat down to breakfast brought by one of the staff. Strong tea, which Meggles took black. Fresh bread, butter and wafer thin transparent slices of cured beef. Meggles though only took jam and bread without butter.

"Meggles is Megra," said Kevlin after the worker had left.

Megra took off her hat and untied her hair. She re-tied it as a pony tail. With the hat off and hair back she was clearly an elf. She took off her jacket and undid a scarf under her tunic and sighed. She gave Barens a smile.

"She doesn't speak much of any Faerie language," said Kevlin. "She has run away, they want her to marry someone she doesn't like. She'd twisted her ankle badly and couldn't walk at all. She thought it was broken. I helped her. She helped me too."

"The Glennaridel trade with me," said Barens, "can you negotiate with them for me? You aren't hiding from them?"

Kevlin and Megra whispered in each other's ears.

"Yes," said Kevlin, "She can negotiate. The Glennaridel are nothing to her."

Barens thought that was an odd turn of phrase.

"What can Megra work at here?"

"Cleaning, looking after stock and such," said Kevlin, "She can't cook or bake."

"But not cleaning the curing sheds, smoking stacks, butchery?" said Barens.

"She could if she had to," said Kevlin.

"Yes," said Megra.

"I'm exploitive, not perhaps completely honest," said Barens, "but I like to kid myself that I'm not actually evil, I'm not cruel. No working with meat or cleaning meat areas. Can you learn to cook and bake, you don't have to eat the produce?"

Again Kevlin and Megra whispered.

"Megra doesn't really understand anything I say?"

"Very little," admitted Kevlin, "we kind of figured out how to communicate. She might try learning to cook and bake, but not meat or dairy. She prefers raw but can eat cooked food if there is no meat or dairy in it."

"Here's the deal. Accommodation, clothes, food. I'll consider paying you if you have a written offer of paid work elsewhere. I get first refusal for wages?"

"I guess if we work well you might consider paying us," said Kevlin, "or we might move on."

"I'm not totally unreasonable," said Barens, "prove your worth and we can negotiate. One or two pallets in your room?"

"We share a room?" said Kevlin.

"Do you want Megra sharing with anyone else?" said Barens. "I'm only offering one room."

"Two pallets then."

"I'll organize a screen or curtain then."

Megra smiled and gave him a little bow. Barens felt unsettled by the fact he wasn't sure how much she understood. But despite not hating Elves, Dwarves or Dryads, after all there might be profit, he found them unsettling. He didn't like convention or ordinary prejudices to get in the way of running his business.
 
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It was early morning and Barans had just finished setting up his stall when he saw the two street urchins - be careful here, as I suspect the phrase comes from the 19th century, rather than mediaeval. Might be worth checking up. come over and stare at the food.

"Show me your coin," said Barens, the stall holder, Why would he do that, when by definition a street urchin is unlikely to have money?

"Where's your parents?" Why would Barens ask this? It sounds like the start of the author writing "Let's introduce various characters and their backstories using dialogue"

"I'm Barens," he said, "what are your names?" Why would he care what their names are, or offer his own? If we're keeping to period, these kids are likely going to try and steal from him to survive.

"Either your mother was very inadequate or you've been on the street a lot longer than two days. Meggles doesn't much look like you either." It's starting to feel a little rambling at this point - we've seen nothing of Baren's character - instead, he is merely serving as a prop to introduce the reader to these two kids via dialogue.

Barens peered at 'Meggels'. He had his head bowed and a ragged sun hat. He'd bet good coin that the supposed younger brother was an Elf girl, maybe even older than Kevlin. No regular Dalrinat Street urchin would be taking care of an Elf.

"Would you like some sausage left over from last night?" Put dialogue section with character section, rather than a new line, as it can confuse the reader into thinking a different character is speaking.

"Perhaps Meggels would prefer a stale bread roll from last night?" All this is potentially food from Baren's own family. If he's married, his wife might be expected to have a right go at him for this - falling for a sob story from street children and giving away the family food. And this Barens has to know that he's in danger of simply encouraging more scrounging and begging at his stall

"It's going to get busy in a short while," he said, "go and wash in the Wagon and you can help serve. WTF? Baren's is coming across as the stupidest person ever to take on a potential thief to handle all of his stock for him. None of this strikes as natural, merely extremely contrived.

I'm lacking an assistant just at the minute. Mediaeval folk don't normally do minutes.

If you are any good, then I'll give you some lunch." I'm left wondering whether Barens is extremely stupid, or else grooming these two

Mysteriously You're forcing an explanation with this use of word - not needed.

dropping the street accent and grammar, which had sounded a bit dubious to Barens. Only now does he become suspicious?


I have to stop now, as this is all too contrived and convenient. If might work if you're aiming at younger YA readers or middle-grade, but at the moment you have no real sense of place, context, or character for an adult fantasy. Nothing here feels real, merely convenient for introducing characters who - if they are so important - should provide the POV.

Also, I have a personal problem with elves as characters, because it suggests the writer won't put any effort into their world-building, and instead would rather borrow some easy tropes from RPGs/Computer games. Some writers do a very good job of creating their own races, even if they sometimes closely reflect familiar ones.
 
street urchins - be careful here, as I suspect the phrase comes from the 19th century, rather than mediaeval.
Doesn't really matter as it's not our Mediaeval world.
Why would he do that, when by definition a street urchin is unlikely to have money?
He's curious about them. It's also an automatic response to anyone, touch and you buy it.

Why would he care what their names are, or offer his own?
Because he wonders who they might be. He suspects they are not street kids at all, but runaways (thus either a reward or something to hold over them to have cheap labour. He can't get staff)

we've seen nothing of Baren's character
He's either very perceptive or a complete idiot.

All this is potentially food from Baren's own family.
Leftovers from last night's supper when he arrived. It's likely going to get thrown out.

WTF? Baren's is coming across as the stupidest person ever to take on a potential thief to handle all of his stock for him
Yes, it's odd, one of the teens remarks to the other that Barens seems stupidly trusting. There is a sort of explanation later. I think you can characters do odd impulsive things if other characters think it's as odd as the reader.

Mediaeval folk don't normally do minutes.
It's not our Mediaeval world. They have clocks, printing press, gunpowder. (But it's not a Steampunk story)

Only now does he become suspicious?
He was curious from the start.

whether Barens is extremely stupid, or else grooming these two
He's grooming them to have unpaid staff! Clothes, food and one room. No pay unless someone else makes an offer. He's desperate, no staff to be had because of the war ... it's all in the first chapter. He has no wife and family to help either

If we're keeping to period,
We have no idea "when" this is. It's obviously not here as we don't have Dryads sucking sap, Dwarves, Elves and Faerie. Three species.
Like Discworld I can have any believable mix of 15th to 19th C technologies.


or character for an adult fantasy
It's for kids / Teens. Four Teenagers will be on the adventure, these are the first two. It's not an Adult story. My (adult) daughter says I don't have enough bonking of either kind for Adult stories (lacking Adult flavoured sex and violence).

I have a personal problem with elves as characters,
It's a fantasy that DELIBERATELY has some stereotypes. see the notes!
http://www.sffchronicles.com/threads/547172/page-29#post-1892860

However there are no "humans" in our sense. The Faerie are most like us. The Dryads have a tenuous connection to other Dryads, but Dryad, Elf and Dwarf gives an approximate initial expectation. My last four books have real Earth people and completely invented from scratch aliens, with invented food, drink, biology, sex, plants, animals etc, but they are SF with a little F.


I'll look at these points. I don't see any of the others as issues at all. Actually some of your reactions are what I'm aiming for!
Many of the Faerie are more than they seem. Not always due to Magic.
Mysteriously You're forcing an explanation with this use of word - not needed.
"Would you like some sausage left over from last night?" Put dialogue section with character section, rather than a new line, as it can confuse the reader into thinking a different character is speaking.
 
Ray, you shouldn't need to write a reply that explains aspects of your story - your story is supposed to that!

Once you develop the character experience more, that should help bring in character motivation and context of your world - for example, Baren's notes that one might be an elf, but thinks absolutely nothing about that to indicate to the reader what this may mean, what they may be thinking, etc.
 
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"Where's your parents?"

"Me mum was a Doxie and two days ago someone strangled her."

"I'm Barens," he said, "what are your names?"

"I'm Kevlin and this here, my younger brother is Meg ... Meggels."

"Either your mother was very inadequate or you've been on the street a lot longer than two days. Meggles doesn't much look like you either."

I was a bit surprised by Barens's lack of reaction to the child's claim his mother was recently strangled. I think maybe you need a little more information for the reader about that (e.g. is he shocked but hiding it? Is he resigned because it happens all the time? does he think it's a good thing that prostitutes are strangled? doesn't he believe the story (and why not)?). Otherwise it feels like you're really keen to get on to introducing his name etc. to the kids (or it's a subtle piece of showing that confused me) and that's where you've gone. It feels odd in terms of a real conversation.

And to describe someone who's just been strangled as "inadequate" is pretty cold. And why's he saying that right after Meggels has been introduced?

I get the idea is that the kids aren't what they claim to be, but Barens doesn't seem to me to be solid enough yet for the role you've given him.

(I'm not sure you're always consistent about whether it's Barans or Barens)

I do think this looks intriguing. It's the sort of opening that would draw me right in to a story. I like the mystery of the kids, and especially "Meg... uh Megglels" -- just this is a draft where you're putting in the outline and working out your story (I think). It will get stronger and stronger as you work on it, but right now there isn't enough for the reader to get the effect that in your head.
 
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doesn't he believe the story
He doesn't believe it. Kevlin looks just like a Lord whose long term partner of nearly 20 years, not actually wife, was murdered some months ago. Not several days ago.

Typo, it's Barens not Barans
I'll set up a custom dictionary and put all the names in, once I've stopped fiddling with them.
 
Ray, you shouldn't need to write a reply that explains aspects of your story - your story is supposed to that!
Hopefully it will as it develops!

But I don't want an Info dump at the beginning either. Enough to interest people to keep reading and all will hopefully be clearer, though it doesn't have to 100% make sense or be clear.
 
introducing his name
His idea was that if he gave his name they might give their real names. Kevlin is really bad at this.
There are certainly people looking for Megra and she'll be very well known by name, being a top betrothed Princess of the most important Elves and run off to avoid marrying the Cousin. Ch3 Megra admits to Barens who she is and he's very worried.
 
Hopefully it will as it develops!

But I don't want an Info dump at the beginning either. Enough to interest people to keep reading and all will hopefully be clearer, though it doesn't have to 100% make sense or be clear.

But when a critter sees a writer coming back with ripostes and justifications it makes - well, me at least, wary of critting because it comes across as not wanting criticism and feedback but really someome just to say good job. I'm not saying that's what you meant, and I'm sure it isn't (and I hope I haven't given offence) but, generally, even if someone completely misses the point of my pieces, I consider what they've said, whether it has relevance (and I think Brian's questions about the world indicate we need more grounding, I certainly felt like I did) thank them and smile. Not argue my point (unless it's a form of a question eg what would give you the grounding you need?) because it doesn't help the critting process at all.
 
So I'm worse at responding properly to the crit than the writing? :(

Well, obviously it's here for the critique (I have two fans that are pretty useless at that).
 
Hee. It's tough to take critiques without explaining. I try to respond gratefully and then I go and cry in the corner/ kick the wall/ scream at the kids -- whatever seems appropriate at the time. When I come back to editing, I am genuinely grateful. At the beginning, though, when I wasn't so pig-headed, crits could really hurt.

I think you need a little more information at this stage to ground the reader (who otherwise might be a little mystified). It doesn't need to be massive info-dumping, but it's good if you can lightly introduce aspects of your world, so people know, at least a little, what to expect (a train? a horse? a spaceship?) and what the dangers and questions are. Not all of them, but some.

(and I'm going to get the chance to be grateful shortly, as the dreaded 000 approaches).
 
I find it hard to put up and shut up sometimes, too. You might have all noticed.... But no good has ever come of me trying to explain something because the only possible response is it should be clear from the writing.

I have a prologue which feels medieval-esque and then the next chapter starts in a spaceship and everyone used to go but, but, but... I argued, I justified. In the end I stuck the poor chap in the prison in the prologue into what were, essentially, space cuffs and everyone was happy, and they were right. Even if it hurt hatefully.

I'll try to get to this, Ray, but am snowed under and very behind with someone's beta. :(
 
I'm not sure how to achieve the middle ground between info dump and almost incomprehensible till you have read 50 pages.

I'm genuinely puzzled by most of Brian's reaction and my three readers here found most of his comments incomprehensible. We seem to be on totally different planets / wavelengths. Is it because it not for Adults and has Elves and deliberately some aspects familiar to RPG and such? The aim is to take some fantasy stereotypes to make it accessible and then twist them a little. Though the Elves are not like Tolkien's nor the Dryads like Lewis, and the Faerie / Fair folk (the most human like characters) have very little of the Irish Sidhe (though slightly).
The four kids on the Quest will be Megra, much the eldest, an Elf, Kevlin (Faerie), Anrhi the girl Dryad can spin threads, and Ghiloric the Wizard boy is a Dwarf, Ghil for short. Megra unlike the others has no "Magic". Perhaps she'll start thinking more! Running away wasn't a choice that can end well for her.
 
But it's absolutely fine not to agree with a critter. I do it all the time.

But they still took the time to read and crit it, and it's etiquette not to argue back, or say you don't agree, partly because it puts others off inputting. Better to smile and say thanks and file whichever crit into the disregard file (although I think many of Brian's comments make sense, particularly around Barens and his motivations - it read to me as contrived to further the story rather than what an actual stall holder would do faced with these urchins.)

And the info dump balance - that's part of the writing skills that you might be still learning. Fwiw, as far as possible, use the character. instead of two urchins - have them shivering in their thin rags. Then it's not info dumping but character experience. But, I'm afraid, waiting 50 pages to explain things isn't an option, if you want to keep people reading it. I wouldn't give you than long.

It's so hard. Sorry. And hellish. But it does get easier, I think, as we write more. (Although I've pretty hammered in my latest crit for much the same thing... So maybe not.)
 
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I guess the point about our crits is that we don't have the background information you do, so some things seem weird to us. Maybe our explanation of what feels odd isn't the way you'll choose to fix them, but if a critter points out something, it's a good idea to consider it. You don't need to do anything, you don't need to explain, but if you want the crit to be useful, then it's worth musing on what people have said.

It can be a big, big, BIG jump from crits from family and friends who love you and enjoy what you write because you wrote it, to people whose focus isn't on you as a person but on you as a writer -- people who're trying to help you, the writer you.
 
So I'm worse at responding properly to the crit than the writing? :(

Well, obviously it's here for the critique (I have two fans that are pretty useless at that).

It's a skill to learn when someone is ripping apart your baby -- I mean how can anyone be so dumb as to not know your thought processes? I still talk too much but now I hope I'm conversing rather than trying to explain (at least that is my intent)

The best piece of advice I ever got was when someone told me to remember I was not going to be sitting in a bookshop when someone is reading those first few pages. Once it's published unless you are JK Rowling nobody is going to care what you meant all they have are the pages in front of them.
 
it's etiquette not to argue back
I shall endeavour to remember this.

This is after all, a kind of story I swore I'd never write. Anyway, I'll think on what is said and save the pages later to be able to mull over them in the future if they vanish. I'll finish the first draft (though I feel like giving up!) and then re-read the comments and see do they make more sense to me.

@Brian Turner
I did edit a paragraph and delete a word as you suggested. :) Honest.
 
I think I picked out a lot of the same things as the others. Some of the dialogue or scene did come across a little forced at times, not quite something that would be the first words/conversation to new people. Almost as though we are listening to a phone conversation that keeps breaking up with static, so we can't catch it all, and are confused.
For example, these two street urchins who he assumes are going to try steal, for me the first instinct would be to chase them off, not give them a job. But as you say maybe he has sussed them out a little better, or gets drawn in by the sob story of this helpless 'boy' who he knows is a young girl, with a sore limping ankle etc. so as they're leaving he calls them back to offer food etc. But we need to see this happening. Which we don't really at the moment.
There were quite a few of these moments, where I felt like i needed just a little more grounding in the setting and scene, descriptions of the buildings, market place, a little 'sense' description from the city and other passers by. I assume this is a busy marketplace, but apart from the paragraph or kevlin selling a few things, I don't get that sense.

What I think would benefit it most is taking a bit more time on it. I understand you don't want this to be an adult fantasy, so maybe as much detail as I would like isn't what you're gong for, but I think it all happens a bit too quickly... We go from big city to Barens' house, via two breakfasts, in 1000 words. It seems like you wanted to get across the characters quickly, fair enough, but maybe too much speed kinda makes us miss the characters altogether.


All of that said, (and I really am the worst person to read something that skips over things too fast; as I hinted, I like a lot of description and full immersion) I really didn't struggle to read it. It kept my attention quite easily, I like the premise, I like the human elements you are giving to the standard elves/dwarves etc.

I think you have the building blocks of something here, but there are things that need work as well, as with any draft.


As for replying, it's always easy to forget that in these crits we only see a small fraction of what's in your mind, so can't get the whole picture :)
 
Is it because it not for Adults

If it's for middle-graders, then that might certainly explain things - I would expect that to be an entirely different book market with unique demands that I have not researched. However, if you're talking about YA fiction, then technical issues will need consideration at some point.

However, first drafts are exactly that - it's the putting down of the first ideas. The theory is that once your first draft is complete, then it's easier to see opportunities for your story and characters to come even more alive.

EDIT: I also keep thinking that you've already published, so that you can take more direct comment - my apologies for misjudging that. I should have provided a more diplomatic summary! :)
 
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family and friends who love you and enjoy what you write
My son thinks most of what I write is nuts. He self publishes his stories in episodes twice a week on his blog.
My mother is sceptical that I have finally learned how to spell my name!
My wife won't read anything with spaceships (this is the 1st without them!)
I do have two fans, they help keep me going (when can we have the next one, they ask.). I'll only get better if I keep going?
 
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