210 words - C12th setting - Is it too modern?

[Phyrebrat]

I know I posted an excerpt for crit on a short a few weeks ago and I'm sorry to be begging another request but this is just a quickie that I think is too long for GD.

I've had lots of advice recently regarding the historic periods of my WIP. I've begun it in earnest because of the support/encouragement I've had from Brian, Harebrain, Toby, VB and Jo, but before I commit to writing it in this voice, I was after impressions.

What I'm aiming for is a modern writing voice for an old setting. Is this too modern-sounding or anachronistic? (The words in brackets are gaps in my research where I need to find the right term, BTW.) Not really looking for line edit-y stuff, more a case of 'No, no NO, this is far too fanciful' or 'yup, I'll go along with it'

Thanks

pH

From the relative shelter of the tree line, Gilbert looked out at the small circle of stones and wondered how deep the towering rocks went. A wet wind curled under his (coat/clothes) and chilled him. Even over the tumult of the storm he heard the anguished call of seabirds flying in from the wild coast nearby, and his whickering (mule/horse) shifted, jerking against its (ties/reins) to the yew tree.

He stepped out into the wild greyness of the plain and made his way up the shallow earthwork. A rogue gust plucked at his (bag) and sent it whirling down into the circle, past the sentinel rocks lumbering above him.
The wet grass glowed a vibrant green, in spite of the drab surroundings and air of the place, and he skidded down the inside slope, sliding to the bottom on his *rse.

‘S*** and God’s bones!’ he cried, snatching his (bag) and stood, slapping at his sodden (coat) which clung to his numbed backside.

The place looked a smaller version of the stanhanges he’d passed through near Old Sarum and he wondered how these stones had survived salvage. Superstition, probably, but the point was of no importance to him. The stones would fall, be worked, and the church of Sturton Bassett would ascend in its place.

 

[tinkerdan]

It works for me: but then who am I?

 

[Kerrybuchanan]

Worked for me. Not sure about anguished cries for seabirds though.

 

[LittleStar]

I know next to nothing about voice, but this one wouldn't put me off reading more.

Im not sure how you can have an oldie voice from the C12th without sounding like Chaucer. But then that's me not knowing anything about voice

 

[Jo Zebedee]

I didn't blink.

 

[Brian G Turner]

I don't see a problem with it being too modern. Ken Follet's Pillars of the Earth is a hugely popular novel based in the 13th century and might be worth looking at for comparison (apologies if I mentioned this before!).

 

[HareBrain]

I thought the language used was fine; you didn't use any words for which there wouldn't (I imagine) have been a direct translation in Old/Middle English.

The one word that did catch me was "salvage". Looking it up, my suspicion was confirmed that it comes from the French. If you can, and have time to check on them, I would try to use Germanic/Anglo-Saxon words where possible, rather than ones from Romance languages. They tend to sound earthier and punchier anyway, and I think they would feel more authentic in this setting.

 

[Toby Frost]

No, I think it works fine. It feels very "historical", as opposed to "fantasy". Gilbert feels like a good name for him, too.

 

[Remedy]

Nothing jarred with me, Phyre.

I'd never seen the word "stanhanges" - just curious. Is it an old way to pluralise Stone Henge?

 

[The Judge]

I passed "salvage" without a problem, but "sentinel" and "vibrant" held me up temporarily, the latter especially as that's a very modern use of the word, and then "stanhanges" jarred for me, since "stanenges" is an old word not in use now (and apparently meant "stone gallows"), and if you've translated everything else, why not that? Otherwise this voice sounds fine.

Re historical points, he'd certainly be wearing clothes ( ) so that's a word you can use without problem! Coat is also fine, but it probably wouldn't look like you'd imagine a coat nowadays, and would be unlikely to be long enough to cover his backside when falling. He'd more likely have a cloak, I think. Wealth and standing would determine what he is riding, but if he's employed by eg the church, he may be on a borrowed/hired nag, and though as a word "rein" is slightly older, I'm pretty sure it's a legitimate translation of what was used.

One anachronism stood out for me. I'm not sure what kind of bag you think he's holding, but if it's a sack full of something it's unlikely to be carried away by a gust no matter how strong. (And why would he be holding it having dismounted? He'd surely have secured it to the saddle) If it's a kind of purse/scrip, it would be fastened to his belt/strung across his body, and again wouldn't be caught in the wind.

And I'd really query whether it is "Old" Sarum yet, since if this is the C12th, New Sarum has yet to be given its charter.

Anyway, good stuff. Am wanting to see more!

 

[Phyrebrat]

Thank you for the replies, everyone. I'm very grateful - not to say surprised - at the positive comments. I was expecting (and ready) for some pretty harsh teethies... I hope I can continue it in this vein.

A few thoughts, then:

It works for me: but then who am I?

A potential reader, that's who. And anyone who has an opinion has a relevant 'say' so thank you.

Worked for me. Not sure about anguished cries for seabirds though.

Thanks. You don't like anguished? I always think seagulls sound like they're sad. Do you think 'lamenting' would be better? I'm trying to use language that will instill a sense of bitterness and sadness rather than the romance of Nature (if that makes sense).

I don't see a problem with it being too modern. Ken Follet's Pillars of the Earth is a hugely popular novel based in the 13th century and might be worth looking at for comparison (apologies if I mentioned this before!).

You did, but it's all good, thanks, because it's on my ABEbooks list. I just need to finish these two I am reading, and then get my head round the Medieval underpants one

The one word that did catch me was "salvage". Looking it up, my suspicion was confirmed that it comes from the French. If you can, and have time to check on them, I would try to use Germanic/Anglo-Saxon words where possible, rather than ones from Romance languages. They tend to sound earthier and punchier anyway, and I think they would feel more authentic in this setting.

Thanks for the tip. I'd never think of this but I think I can keep an eye out for possible Romancey ones, and you're right, about authenticity.

No, I think it works fine. It feels very "historical", as opposed to "fantasy". Gilbert feels like a good name for him, too.

You know, I'm glad you mentioned the name, as when I was trying to decide, it came up quite quickly and just felt right in a way that those things often happen when we're writing. I checked and it was in common use so I went with it. Thanks

I'd never seen the word "stanhanges" - just curious. Is it an old way to pluralise Stone Henge?

It's funny bearing in mind your comment and TJ's below; what should have been the most simple term caused me the most concern (or, perhaps, overthinking)! In my research I found that Anglo Saxon's called it stonehenge and that the use of the term 'henge' to describe an earthwork ditch was backformation used in the 1930s by an Antiquities guy from The British Museum. There's dispute as to the origins of the word as Hanges is Germanic for hinge or hanging and there is also another unproven (more romantic) theory about them. So, henge is not actually a word until 1930s, and I read that the Anglo Saxons would have called it stanehanges - I couldn't decide whether to go for the Ready Salted stonehenge, or stanehanges because I could just imagine readers saying that stonehenge was a modern word, when it seems, it is not - just the spelling is. So I went for the Prawn Cocktail version instead

I passed "salvage" without a problem, but "sentinel" and "vibrant" held me up temporarily, the latter especially as that's a very modern use of the word, and then "stanhanges" jarred for me, since "stanenges" is an old word not in use now (and apparently meant "stone gallows"), and if you've translated everything else, why not that? Otherwise this voice sounds fine.

Re historical points, he'd certainly be wearing clothes ( ) so that's a word you can use without problem! Coat is also fine, but it probably wouldn't look like you'd imagine a coat nowadays, and would be unlikely to be long enough to cover his backside when falling. He'd more likely have a cloak, I think. Wealth and standing would determine what he is riding, but if he's employed by eg the church, he may be on a borrowed/hired nag, and though as a word "rein" is slightly older, I'm pretty sure it's a legitimate translation of what was used.

One anachronism stood out for me. I'm not sure what kind of bag you think he's holding, but if it's a sack full of something it's unlikely to be carried away by a gust no matter how strong. (And why would he be holding it having dismounted? He'd surely have secured it to the saddle) If it's a kind of purse/scrip, it would be fastened to his belt/strung across his body, and again wouldn't be caught in the wind.

And I'd really query whether it is "Old" Sarum yet, since if this is the C12th, New Sarum has yet to be given its charter.

Anyway, good stuff. Am wanting to see more!

Great feedback, thank you, your Hon. I could easily drop sentinel and just have them as lumbering. I used it because I thought it imparted a sense of sentience but it's not a big deal to cut. And now you mention vibrant, I see it. And it's not the right word anyway. I wanted a more sickly green so I'll have a think.

Re the bag. I had some kind of satchel-y thing in mind like an olden day courier bag of some description which contained a map or diagram of some sort. I hadn't expanded on it because paper didn't make its way to England until late 1400s and I hadn't done more than a cursory research for what the material would be (Seems rags apparently).

Yes, he's employed by the church and the horse is not his. I want to be specific whether it is to be am Austin Allegro or a Daimler

I thought Old Sarum was always called that. I didn't know Old was appended. I could have used the Roman name but it is horribly long and I think Sarum/Old Sarum sounds much more authentic; Sarum it is!

As always, thanks everyone for taking time to comment. I really feel buoyed up by this feedback and hate the fact I have to teach the snotties (4-7 year olds) in an hour and a half

pH

 

[Kerrybuchanan]

Yes, I think the lamenting calls of seagulls would work better, but that might just be me. No one else has mentioned it.

 

[Remedy]

I thought Old Sarum was always called that. I didn't know Old was appended. I could have used the Roman name but it is horribly long and I think Sarum/Old Sarum sounds much more authentic; Sarum it is!

Have you read Sarum by Edward Rutherfurd? - its a very detailed and imaginative account of the rise of Salisbury, following a select few family trees from Neolithic times right the way through to present day. Its a lot more interesting and exciting than I describe. It includes the construction of Stonehenge, the Romans arriving and the construction of Salisbury Cathedral. If your story will be focused in that area, I highly recommend giving it a read - perhaps just the part for your time period anyway

 

[The Judge]

Re "stanhanges" the OED I use does mention "henge" as being a word in its own right used in Yorkshire from about 1740, but unless Stonehenge is going to play a part in the book, in which case I'd use the name as it is now and capitalise it, I'd personally take the coward's way out and refer to it obliquely as the big circle of stones or something. (NB Apparently "An ancient name for it was the Giant's Dance." You can't get away from dancing!)

I could easily drop sentinel and just have them as lumbering. I used it because I thought it imparted a sense of sentience but it's not a big deal to cut.

I think why it scratched at my mind is the way you've used it: past the sentinel rocks. To me it felt like jargon eg "These are the bluestones, that's the altar stone, this is the sentinel stone." If he'd thought "past the rocks standing like sentinels" I don't think I'd have blinked so much (though "watchmen" might be better and more in keeping -- sentinel being another and later Romance word). By the way, "lumbering" means the rocks are moving clumsily (like the snotties, no doubt!). Do you mean looming?

Re the bag. I had some kind of satchel-y thing in mind like an olden day courier bag of some description which contained a map or diagram of some sort. I hadn't expanded on it because paper didn't make its way to England until late 1400s and I hadn't done more than a cursory research for what the material would be (Seems rags apparently).

A scrap of parchment, perhaps. But if it's not very big, he'd most likely keep it folded in his purse, I think. A satchel-type bag is very likely if he's carrying other stuff -- eg if he's ridden any distance he'd likely have a bite to eat in it -- but I think it would be like a satchel and have a long strap so it could be worn across the body.

NB I like Gilbert, too, and I've always thought of gulls as wailing.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Is this too modern-sounding or anachronistic?

An invaluable site for checking the origin of words:
http://etymonline.com/

Good for checking if any words might seem too modern for your setting.

 

[psychotick]

Hi,

Just to add my tuppence worth. (It may not be worth that much.) A couple of things stood out to me. First how "deep" the towers go - seemed a bit odd - up and down sort of mixed up.

Clothes versus coat - of the two coat sounds more genuine for the time, but perhaps cloak would be better - or great cloak.

Bag I would suggest would be better as sack. Don't know why, it just sounds older in my head. Maybe it's because a sack in my thoughts is a cruder thing, and we're talking medieval times.

Also do horses whicker? Or is it nicker? I don't actually know.

Superstition feels like a modern word. It's how we talk about meieval thoughts, not how they would have spoken about it themselves. In fact 12th century is pre age of reason as they say, so I'm not sure the concept would even have been there then. More likely what would have saved the stones would have been what your MC as a new religion convert would have called pagan or heathen beliefs / fears.

Last I think I'd go for the anguished cries of seabirds.

Hope that helps.

Cheers, Greg.

 

[Phyrebrat]

I think why it scratched at my mind is the way you've used it: past the sentinel rocks. To me it felt like jargon eg "These are the bluestones, that's the altar stone, this is the sentinel stone." If he'd thought "past the rocks standing like sentinels" I don't think I'd have blinked so much (though "watchmen" might be better and more in keeping -- sentinel being another and later Romance word). By the way, "lumbering" means the rocks are moving clumsily (like the snotties, no doubt!). Do you mean looming?

A-ha, in that case I'll definitely remove the word sentinel as I don't want folks thinking I meant the actual terms for the stone placings. Yes, I did use lumbering on purpose; I'm guilty of giving inanimate objects organic movement in strange fiction. I've had lamposts marching and huddling oaks in the past. I'd draw the line at strutting pylons though.

A scrap of parchment, perhaps. But if it's not very big, he'd most likely keep it folded in his purse, I think. A satchel-type bag is very likely if he's carrying other stuff -- eg if he's ridden any distance he'd likely have a bite to eat in it -- but I think it would be like a satchel and have a long strap so it could be worn across the body.

The bag is now gone and has been replaced by the parchment being whipped out of his hand by the wind. (And I'm glad you like poor Gilbert). The gulls are now 'stroppy' (jk)

Hi,

Just to add my tuppence worth. (It may not be worth that much.) A couple of things stood out to me. First how "deep" the towers go - seemed a bit odd - up and down sort of mixed up.

Clothes versus coat - of the two coat sounds more genuine for the time, but perhaps cloak would be better - or great cloak.

Also do horses whicker? Or is it nicker? I don't actually know.

Thanks for your comments Greg,

The stones are set into the earth, hence them going 'deep'. About superstition, you're right; I think it was 1400s that it came into use. I toyed with using the word 'dread' instead (but that means something different to me from all the time I spend in Brixton ) and I thought I might get away with it. Aargh.. now I can't decide.

Also I was going to change to sack but now have removed reference to the bag and just mention he is carrying a parchment - solves the issue.

Thanks again, tout le monde (or perhaps, toutes les mondes!)

pH

 

[Kerrybuchanan]

I'd draw the line at strutting pylons though

*snorts*

 

[Ihe]

Nothing sounded off voice-wise.

(...) he wondered how these stones had survived salvage. Superstition, probably, but the point was of no importance to him.

This did poke its head out though, and it made me slow down the read. I wouldn't say it's a contradiction, but if you wonder about something, then answer it in the next sentence, and then you assert that it's pointless to him, the progression feels a bit time-wasty for me. If you consider the sentence after this, it would make more sense, IMO, to convey the idea along the lines of: "...even superstition wouldn't be able to protect the place when the church marched in."

 

[Phyrebrat]

Okay, I have nearly tied myself in knots using Brian's online etymology link. I may to have to jiggle the date, as so many of the words we use come from C14th. I'm hoping for some levity with artistic licence but here's a redraft - I've also included the next 400 words but that's just to give you an idea. And as you can probably guess bone yard is one liberty I took

From the relative shelter of the tree line, Gilbert looked out at the small circle of stones and wondered how deep the towering rocks went. A wet wind curled under his clothes and chilled him. Even over the tumult of the storm he heard the lament of seabirds flying in from the wild coast nearby, and his whickering trotter shifted, jerking against its reins tied to a yew tree.

He stepped out into the wild greyness of the plain and made his way up the shallow earthwork. A rogue gust plucked at the parchment square the Dean had given him and sent it whirling down into the circle, past the rocks lumbering above him.
The wet grass glowed a sickly green, in spite of the drab surroundings and air of the place, and he skidded down the inside slope, sliding to the bottom on his a***.

‘S*** and God’s bones!’ he cried, snatching at the parchment and stood, slapping at his sodden cloak which clung to his numbed backside.

The place looked a smaller version of the stones he’d once passed through near Sarum and he wondered how these ones had survived salvage. Superstition, probably, but the point had no bearing to his duty. The stones would fall, be worked, and the church of Sturton Bassett would ascend in its place.

The parchment square which had been flapping, settled and stuck to the top of his wrist. Gilbert mumbled another curse as he grasped it with his other hand and smoothed it down along the length of his thigh. Moving so that the woods were to his north as on the small chart, he cast his eyes across the plain for a smaller feature to the west; one the parchment noted as 'Old Yard'.

The Dean had assured him it was nearby - near enough to be a problem to the Dean's plans - and given firm direction for Gilbert to find 'the most flattering solution’. He understood the real colour of that word, that the Dean really meant a bargain solution, and shook his head fatigued with the weather and his task.

He spied a low clump of grasses beyond the earthwork in the direction he expected the Old Yard to be, and moved quickly across the circle to an area where the mound slumped to ground level. When he left the circle the wind picked up speed and tore at his clothes again, and he sensed the centre of the stone circle was otherwise becalmed. He stepped backwards and found the gusts indeed dropped, surprised that he couldn't even feel the flick of rain on his face. Outside the perimeter the wind howled and he braved it with bowed head and clutched cloak as he moved to the taller grasses.

The grass formed regular, unnatural clumps and he couldn't see the pattern from this elevation. He hurried back to the highest point on the earthwork to get a better perspective.

Nine Men’s Morris, he thought looking at the geometry of the Old Yard. The conversation he'd had with the Dean earlier came into clearer focus;

'Make a survey of the land, paying particular attention to this area,’ the Dean had said tapping the area marked Old Yard. 'It should be cleared out completely before any labourers and masons arrive.'
‘Reverend, it appears far enough outside of the church fundament,’
'The area will be full of Satan's trinkets. I don't want the parish children digging up heathen leavings. Once the Almighty has His house there, the past will have no place to abide.'
Gilbert had nodded, wondering what lay there.

"Completely", the Dean had said with an emphasis that was strange, and now Gilbert could understand the reason. Old Yard was a pretence just as flattering had been; the Dean had really meant bone yard.