Medieval gazumping! Help needed

Movement of boundary markers might be another means of stealing land or the rights to use the land.

This webpage includes a story about a landowner who placed new stone markers in an attempt to shift a boundary:
Thhttps://salfordhundred.wordpress.co...s-to-boundaries-and-other-landscape-features/

This webpage refers to engineering works aimed at shifting boundaries by diverting the River Rye:
http://www.sacred-destinations.com/england/rievaulx-abbey

This. Moving boundary markers has been a way of stealing land for most of history. It is even mentioned when the law was lay down for the Hebrews in the Hebrew scriptures of the bible.
 
''When you receive your inheritance in the land that Jehovah your God is giving you to possess, you must not move your neighbor’s boundary marker from the place where the ancestors set the boundaries.'' - Deuteronomy 18:14

Evidence for the backing up and stuff!*

*I double checked because I wanted to be sure and so quoted it when I found it.
 
The fact the law existed means that people did it. You don't bother with laws against stuff people never do.

In Ireland the really old (maybe more than 1,500 years old) boundary stones are absolutely massive, no doubt to dissuade folk from moving them in the middle of the night. They have the oldest Irish/Celtic/Gaelic inscriptions of any quantity, in Ogham letter Old Irish. Some are in Wales too, with Latin translations or Roman letter transliterations I think.
 
Thanks guys, are you trying to deliberately dazzle me with options? :D

I do like the Hebrew element which I could use but I think it may be overcomplicating things. I probably won't be able to resist referring to it in one of the character's dialogue though ;)

BTW, the Abbot isn't going to be sentenced to death so Shielde can own the land, but so he's out the way, thereby removing all witnesses and parties to the deeds. In each time slot there are seven murders. The Abbot is one of the seven.

You're all too awesome for me. Thanks :)

pH
 
Phyrebrat, I agree with MHP that the scenario you’ve outlined isn’t credible in legal terms, though the number of people who would realise that is likely to be very small, so you’d probably get away with it, especially if you were vague about exactly what happened each time. If you want the legalities to be authentic, though, you need to do some tweaking. My thoughts on the ideas as they stand at present:

1 The church acts as tenant-in-chief of the land. That means the land has been given to the Benedictines (not to the church) by the King, which in 1176 is Henry II. He definitely established some religious houses in France after Becket’s death by way of atonement (or the appearance of such), so that would kind of fit in, but the disadvantage of this is that it’s not until 1387 that tenants-in-chief can alienate land, so there’s no way your dishonest Abbot can dispose of the entirety of the land in the 1340s, which is what you presumably want to happen. Plus if it’s a royal grant, I’m pretty sure the projected abbey would be expected to be something grand, and the land allotment would be sizeable (don’t forget that the grant would involve not only the place where the abbey is to be built, but also sufficient lands around it/in the area so it’s self-funding through farming) so the chances of it deteriorating to a leper hospital are lessened. Since there’s no advantage in the grant coming from the King, and possible disadvantages, I’d suggest making the grantor someone less exalted.

2 Shielde conspires with the corrupt Abbot/trading post. I have to confess the “trading post” idea confuses me a good deal, as it’s not something I’ve ever heard of in England. The usual course of events would have local people gravitating to the abbey in order to benefit from its presence – selling to the monks/receiving charity – and a settlement would gradually establish itself around the abbey buildings, which would grow into a town. There’s no way an abbey in that situation would ever be converted to a leper hospital which were always kept well away from settlements for obvious reasons. If this were a purely contemplative Order that might make more sense, as they would discourage people settling nearby, or perhaps a daughter house of an established monastery, which might remain more isolated. But I’m still not sure what you mean by “trading post” – if the site is convenient for trade, ie at the confluence of trade routes or rivers – then it’s more than likely the site would already have started to develop into a town in the 150 years since the abbey’s founding, even if not before. I’m also not at all convinced by the trading guild idea you have, but that’s another issue.

3 Shielde frames the church for crimes. The church as a body can’t commit crimes, of course, not in a legal sense at that time anyway, and the abbot personally would have benefit of clergy, a rule which meant no cleric could be tried in or punished by a secular court (save for a few exceptions such as high treason), and in any event, as MHP says, the land is not vested in the abbot personally, but in the Order, so even if the abbot were arraigned and executed, the land would remain in the possession of the Order who could simply appoint a new abbot straightaway.

4 Under the development of escheat, the 7 traders become feoffees. There would be no escheat in these circumstances, but if it were to happen, the land would revert to the overlord, ie in this instance the King, who would then hand it out to someone else willing to pay enough money for it. No feoffees would be appointed in that situation, as there's no Trust involved, and trustees certainly wouldn’t be a pack of local oiks with no money or name. In any event, I wonder if you’ve missed a trick here. If you’re planning a takeover by Shielde in the 1340s, why not push it back a few years until after 1350 by which time the Black Death has decimated (used in the colloquial not technical sense) the local population, so the small town which has grown up around the abbey/leper hospital is entirely lost, and Shielde has less to worry about when he comes to take the land for himself.

5 Shielde does away with the others. If trustees die, others should be appointed in their place, though this is more plausible than the other bits. By the way, what makes this place so attractive that Shielde wants it and is willing to kill for it? And where does he get the money from to convert the place to his home and maintain it thereafter?


I don’t know how wedded you are to the plot as it stands, and especially the trading post/guild thing, but for what it’s worth I had an idea which might hold legal water, or at least sounds more inherently plausible. Have the church steal the land in a two-fold way, but push back that theft to 1098 and the first crusade. A crusader owns a big swathe of land which has been granted to him and his heirs, and to protect his wife and baby son he establishes a trust whereby the abbot of the nearby abbey is appointed feoffee of the entire estate. The abbot knows of the pagan stones (which the crusader has refused to remove?) so he decides to establish a daughter house there to sanctify the site. He therefore appropriates that bit of land at least (the less he steals, the easier it is to hang onto it – stealing the whole creates greater noise and sympathy for the wife and son) and evicts the people in actual physical possession, pagan or otherwise. The crusader never returns, his son dies five days short of his 21st birthday, so can’t inherit from his father and bring the trust to an end, but he already has a legitimate son of his own (special dispensation allowing the marriage), so there’s now a dispute as to whether that son can inherit when he gets to 21. Lots of legal actions, rumbling over the years. The family eventually gets the rest of the land back, but the Order manages by shady means to keep the once-pagan land (though why it would want to is another question). The family fortunes wane, the Black Death kills 80% of the local population, but Shielde finds the heir who is now on his uppers. He forges a few documents with the help of the crooked abbot or some other associate (if Shielde is only a miller or farmer without assets of his own, he will need access to a lawyer or educated man to deal with the legalities), takes the land back from the Order, then kills both the heir and the abbot/associate after having the heir make a Will in his favour. (Hmmm. Would need to check when it's possible to leave real property in Wills.)

Mind, I also still like using the dissolution to prise the place out of the Order's hands.

Not to pour cold water on moving the boundary stones idea, which is fine for getting agricultural land or woodland, though it requires Shielde to have sufficient property alongside it to make it credible, but it requires something of a leap of faith that no one -- even after the Black Death -- thinks it odd that suddenly a complex of Benedictine buildngs are miraculously within his boundary markers.

Finally, I've had another thought about the Sheedthorpe Grange name. "Thorpe" as name and suffix comes from a word meaning small village/hamlet, which doesn't seem appropriate here when there's the leper hospital, and places incorporating it are mostly situated in the area of the Danelaw, with a few exceptions in Surrey for some reason. It's not something in use in the Wiltshire/Hampshire area as far as I'm aware.
 
So, @The Judge how shall I pay you for all this consultancy? I'd offer royalties but that presupposes I even get published. :)

Despite what you might think (as per your PM), I really am grateful even if this does require me to constantly change my plans because all this discussion is giving me a really robust understanding of my background so that when I do eventually put pen to paper (ish) I will be able to write comfortably - or at least more comfortably.

I'm not particularly precious about 'my way' and would much rather spend time getting it right. Maybe the majority of readers wouldn't know the difference, but I wouldn't be happy if it wasn't belt n braces enough. :) I'm going to digest what you've put here and then make a new proposal. I think I may have to email you though as the time-shifting may present a problem.

The 1176 strand was going to be a simple story of the Church consecrating the land and building a small church in the stone circle as per Knowlton Rings off Cranborne Chase (I'm guessing you know where I mean). There are existing barrows there and I had extrapolated that to include bones of ancient pagans who in my story end up ground into the mortar that the builders use when they re-purpose the stones to make the church.

This then jumps ahead to 1340s because I wanted to have the site more or less derelict from the effects of the Plague - the plague happens at the end of the 1340s strand effectively (as far as the reader is concerned) finishing that strand until I get to the Reformation and a brief story on Priest Holes where the land is seen to be in the Shielde name, still. Then there's the jump to the 1700s.

As far as the Guild goes, no I'm not wedded to it. I just grew up influenced by the Tolpuddle Martyr stuff of the 1700s and after doing some reading, found that farmers and traders in the 1300s also were stung by middlemen and brokers selling their stuff at Market towns. As Shielde is a miller and wants to improve his lot, he wants to wrangle Royal permission to use the area nearby as a trading post. So he gets together with a blacksmith, four farmers a net maker and the abbot to oust the lepers and converting the place to the market. The abbot's part is(was) in getting the permission to set up a market/trading post. But it doesn;t have to be a trading post at all. I just needed a cabal to work together and then get double-crossed by Shielde.

(The leper colony is outside of the main village of Lour, in a nearby area I've called called Sturton Bassett).


Thanks all, again for this amazing help. As I've said, I'm perfectly happy to change my premise - I've been researching this section for 9 weeks now and first started writing this in 2009. There's no point making half an effort as far as I'm concerned ;)

pH
 
I can't add any other help, but in my experience, taking TJ's plot ideas is often one of the best writing decisions you can make.
 
I’d vaguely heard of Knowlton and we must have passed it several times over the years, but we’ve never gone and had a look at it. So that’s next weekend’s jaunt organised...

Knowlton’s slightly different from your projected plot, of course, as the church was built for the benefit of, and probably by, the people of the nearby village. I’m not sure in that situation who would have owned the land the church was built upon as and when it was built – the local tenant-in-demesne might have gifted the land to the church in return for masses for himself and his family (though not sure how that would have worked ie whose name would appear in the deed of gift), or he might have retained it himself. A church is a very different being from an abbey, though – no one is going to build a church unless the congregation is already there. An abbatial church is built first and foremost for the monks themselves, even if the locals are subsequently allowed into the nave for worship, so could well be situated in the back of beyond.

If you want the buildings to fall derelict, I’d definitely move the timeline on a few years to give time for the weather to act and for the stones to be robbed out for the benefit of farmers a few miles away improving their houses.

If Shielde is a miller in this Benedictine complex, he’s more likely to be a servant of the abbey than an independent tradesman, I’d have thought, and I can’t believe he’d be worried about what might happen at local markets, since I’m pretty sure flour wasn’t sold in open markets then. In any event, although almost certainly he’s ripping everybody off by not giving full weight of the milled grain (eg for every lb of grain he’s given to mill, he might only hand over 15oz of flour, using dodgy weights), if he’s selling that flour or any unmilled grain that’s conveniently “lost” in the process, it isn’t going to be in the open where people can get evidence of his criminality. I'd have similar reservations about the smith and the net-maker being interested in markets since they would surely both make to order, not on spec to sell at a stall. (And is a net-maker likely to be a full-time job other than at the coast? Even if there is plenty of river fishing, I can't see a specialist doing the necessary, especially since stuff like eel fishing requires basket-making skills rather than nets, I think.)

Re medieval markets, I imagine they originated on an ad hoc basis as farmers brought surplus produce to the local town to sell, thereby creating friction with the local tax-paying shopkeepers of course, which would eventually have led to the town’s burgesses wanting to put things onto a more formal footing. I’m not sure when and why burgesses might move to establish a formal Charter Market requiring the King’s consent, though the few I’ve looked at appear to be contemporaneous with the town/city receiving its town/city charter granting other privileges**, but again that’s only going to occur when there is a sufficient population to justify it. The people come first, then the markets. If there are sufficient people around your abbey to warrant a charter market, there will already be something informal going on but this argues against the leper hospital being there. The idea of a trading post (a term not used until 1796, apparently) is more suited to somewhere like early colonial America I’d have said, where there are large tracts of land, towns are few and far between, and eg hunters/trappers etc can return to central sites to buy necessities and sell their wares, but there isn’t enough good agricultural land there to create permanent settlements of any size ie the direct opposite of England.

** eg Romsey's charter market dates from the early 1100s, but it was a Saxon village when the Benedictine Nunnery was founded in 907, and they had a market of sorts outside the abbey gates in the 1000s.


(PS Flattery will get the three of you nowhere. Chocolate biscuits on the other hand...)
 
Thanks TJ - my head is spinning.

I just spent the entire 50 min journey from my home to Brixton trying to work out how to deal with all this. Looks like a total rebuild from the ground up.

I really hope you like Knowlton. I've spent so much time there over the years. If it's sunny it's beautiful, if it's grey, it's atmospheric.

Got a couple questions and ideas I'm going to email you when I'm finished - altho class doesn't finish till 10.30pm so I doubt I'll get home till midnight - all because I have to go past McVities' factory for a quick smash n grab :)

pH
 

Back
Top