'What ifs' in A Song of Ice and Fire

[Narkalui]

Or, the moment resigned the Handship over Dany's assassination get the he'll out of Dodge instead of swanning off to see another of Robert's bastards and getting his leg broken by Jaime Lannister. He should have rolled Sansa up in a carpet and evacuated his entire household that very day. Then he could have led The North into the war providing greater education for his son and keeping his daughters safe at home.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

This made me think of another thing. It may not seem significant but...

What If Arya didn't realize that the men on the docks were actually Lannister Men and not Northmen. (she almost revealed herself to them thinking they would take her home when she realized she didn't recognize them as men in her fathers service. If memory serves, she tried to sell them a pigeon)

Might not seem like much, but if she had been captured, the Lannisters would have another hostage, which might change things. But also, Kat and Rob would know that she was still alive, which could have influenced their decisions. Even more intriguing (at least to me) would be how she would act being a prisoner in the Red Keep. As wild as she is, you could probably expect her to at least try to kill Joffrey, or the Queen or any number of people in the castle. And she is pretty clever and bold so she might have even succeeded with one of those attempts. How would it change the story if she murdered the Queen, or Murdered Joffrey before Ned was ever even executed. Maybe she would even murder Sansa if she found out that it was Sansa's fault.

 

[Narkalui]

That's a very interesting scenario, the permutations are extremely numerous!

 

[Narkalui]

I like to pretend that there is an obscure law stating that if the wife of the King or the wife of the King's heir should prove infertile then the husband may legally take a second wife AND that there is a small Sept somewhere just south of the Kings Wood with a record of a marriage between a Rheagar Targarean and Lyanna Stark. Completely non canonical but fun nonetheless

OK, that. And, what if Jon never swore his oath to The Nights Watch and Ned got out of Dodge straight after resigning the Handship and someone amongst the Northern army had somehow rumbled that R+L=J? Instead of declaring Ned King of The North or declaring for Stannis as Ned would have urged would they have raised the Three Headed Dragon and declared for Jon?

I've just realised there is one massive hole in this: without Jon in the Nights Watch they all get massacred either at the Fist of the First Men or by Mance Raider at Castle Black. Whoops!

 

[Narkalui]

I think I've got a winning 'What If' here for The North. What if Robb and Margaret had married just before the bird reached Winterfell informing them of King Robert's impending visit? An early, young marriage I know but nonetheless not unrealistic. With The North, The Riverlands and The Reach as one big power block I can't see them losing... Have I missed anything?

 

[Anushka Mokosh]

Margaret?

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

Margary I am assuming.

 

[Anushka Mokosh]

Ah, in that case, I don't see the War of Five Kings happening at all. Nothing out of the books would say the same. It is impossible to tell what would have happened. It's too big of a what if to predict.

 

[Narkalui]

Yes, it was Margaery, kindle Fire auto correct again!

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

well, Robb is married, but John Arryn still gets assassinated?

So Robert would still request Ned be his hand, the court comes to winterfel, Bran sees what he sees and gets pushed out a window, Joffrey still hires that assassin, Jon still goes to the wall taking Tyrion with him, Cat still captures Tyrion, Ned still gets attacked, Cersei still kills Robert, Ned still gets beheaded

I think most things would stay the same except now we don't know who the reach supports. would they still back Renly as the candidate for King or would they back Stannis? Lets say they still back Renly and Robb is still called the king in the north, Then stannis still assassinates Renly, but instead of the reach switching their support to the lannisters, they would stay with their ally in the north.

That means when Stannis attacks casterly rock, no last minute intervention by Tywin Lannister, who would be dealing with the combined assaults of the Reach, the riverlands and the north, (which means the Rock will probably fall). So Stannis takes Kings Landing, but then where does that leave the rest of them?

 

[Narkalui]

Stannis, having recently taken Kingslanding would find himself hurriedly having to prepare for an assault by a horde of Northmen, Riverlanders and Reach Men. Enter Robb's wild card: Arya. After being kidnapped by the Hound he successfully reunites her with her brother before riding off with his bag of (plundered Lannister?) Gold. Arya could then lead a 'Trojan Horse' group directly into the Red Keep through her secret tunnel.

Robb wins

But what would Robb do with this victory?

 

[Narkalui]

Elephant in the room: what if a) Elia of Dorne died giving birth to Aegon and b) Rheagar arranged himself a second marriage to Lyanna Stark BEFORE Robert Baratheon ever met her...

 

[Young stormlord]

What if Ned locked Sansa in the tower that fateful evening so she couldn't go running to Cersei? Half of the story wouldn't have happened.
What if Yoren didn't die and Arya reached the Winterfell safely?
No weasel soup, Bolton doesn't kill half of Rob's loyal banner-men, all Hornwoods are alive, Ramsey doesn't get into picture at all.

What if Arya named Tywin as one of her deaths? Then Bolton and Walder Frey don't get into negotiation and pact with Lannisters, no Red Wedding.
What if Viper had beaten the Mountain? Then Tyrion would still have been in hot water because his wife has gone missing, but nowhere near Danny.

What if Danny didn't stop to rule that darn city but left Jorah Mormont to rule it in her name while she took her army and went to Westeros? Solves two problems: one, Jorah betrayed her and she "rewarded" him by giving him the city but he is nowhere near her to betray her again. Two, someone loyal to her is ruling the city in her name and can send her help occasionally. Ser Jorah lost a lot, giving him a huge city to rule instead of Bear Island wouldn't hurt him that much, despite the pain of being far away from Danny.

What if Theon listened to Asha, looted Winterfell and ran? Even better, what if Rob never sent Theon to negotiate with Balon Greyjoy in the first place?

 

[LilyDraken]

What if Ned locked Sansa in the tower that fateful evening so she couldn't go running to Cersei?

This was the first thing I thought of at the thread title. What is Sansa didn't go running to Cersei? Would the Starks and Lannisters have had a faceoff in KL? Starks v Lannisters in the streets, waiting for Stannis to back Ned up?

On discovering Ned's plans, Cersei's plan was to have Joffrey send Ned to take the Black, so what if Ned had lived and had taken the black? Would Jon have leveled up, becoming Lord Commander? Would people have taken the threat of the white walkers more seriously if the warning had come from Eddard Stark?

Oh my, down the rabbit hole I go...

 

[Narkalui]

What if Arya named Tywin as one of her deaths? Then Bolton and Walder Frey don't get into negotiation and pact with Lannisters, no Red Wedding.

This one is interesting. How would Kevan have behaved differently as the de facto commander of the Western forces. I'm sure he still would have pushed at Trident and would still have turned around to link up with the Tyrells and attack Stannis. After this, I think things become a little more uncertain.

Issue 1: Succession
Tyrion is now Lord of Casterley Rock. With Jaime imprisoned at Riverrun there is no one to contest his claim except Cersei. Frankly, I can't see Kevan trying to stop Tyrion taking his seat, he's too forthright and honest. Tyrion succeeds Tywin and Cersei doesn't like it.

Issue 2:Governance
Cersei doesn't want Tyrion as Hand. She would want Uncle Kevan, having just become Lord of Casterley Rock I think Tyrion would be happy to step down and chalk it up as a win. Kevan as hand insists on the inclusion of Tyrells on his small council and Cersei proceeds to undo this alliance-building because she's a jealous paranoid fool/maniac.

Issue 3: Sansa
I think Kevan would only have seen Sansa as a hostage. I can't see him forcing her to marry Tyrion.

Issue 4:Robb
Kevan would see Robb as an enemy to be defeated in battle, the Red Wedding would never have happened. But, by offending the Freys he has now stranded himself in the Riverlands. Result: Combined army of Tyrells, Lannisters and Freys marching to attack the army of The North and the Riverlands sans Karstarks.

In other words, in order for Robb to win through, he's going to have to pull off something pretty darn spectacular

 

[Narkalui]

What if Lysa had poisoned the man who was to be her son's foster father as well as her husband?

With Stannis dead, Ned declares for Renly the very night that Robert died and works with Renly to eliminate the Queens men and take Cersei, Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen into custody...

 

[Narkalui]

Read an interesting Fanfic called The Nail: What if Cat's horse had thrown a shoe (for want of a nail...) before her arrival at the Crossroads Inn, meaning she was delayed and missed Tyrion?

 

[BAYLOR]

Robert was a a very poor judge of people which was one of the main reasons he was such a lousy king . Had he reached out to Cersie and treated her better then he did, allied with her rather then alienate her, The out would have been far better for him and his kingdom.

 

[MemoryTale]

Sorry if this has already been mentioned, but what if Sansa had gone with the Hound when he came for her in Clash of Kings?

Assuming little else changed, it means Sansa and Arya would have been reunited when Clegane was caught by the Kingsmen. I think the Red Wedding would still have happened, but it's probably Arya would never have gone to Bravos and Sansa would never have been caught up in the Purple Wedding and everything that's resulted from that. In fact it's conceivable Joffrey would still be alive, since Littlefinger and Olenna wouldn't be able to use her as a patsy for his murder.

 

[Narkalui]

I don't think there's any way the Queen of Thorns would have tolerated Joffrey as a husband for her granddaughter...

Would the Hound still have been caught by the BWoB? That was a massive coincidence wasn't it? The slightest alteration to the Hounds timeline surely would have prevented his capture?

Assuming he gets Sansa to Riverrun before Robb's departure she'd have been AT the Red Wedding, and she wouldn't have been much use. Probably captured after seeing Robb and Cat murdered and kept by Roose Bolton as a bride for Ramsey a la TV land.

Clegane would probably have been there too and likely as not died after killing a score of Freys. Although, I don't think it would be too much of a stretch to think that Clegane might have smelt a rat but I don't think he could have saved the day...