The mysterious monuments of Kazakhstan

[SilentRoamer]

Our initial expansion into the galaxy will be slow, colonisation of the moon, mars etc and space stations. As long as we can take these baby steps succesfully there is no reason we cant expand into the greater galaxy. The solar system is resource rich, advanced robotic syrstems can do the gathering. Food production ista hurdle but can be done.

3 dimensional beings? Are we? I would say we are 4 dimensional, just including time. Anything more is beyond our knowledge for now. We may (and probably do) inhabit more (if they exist). We are limited only by our current understanding and knowledge.

With the expected destruction of our biosphere where would any food production come from? The complexity of life dictates an evolving biosphere over millions of years - I don't think we are ever going to be able to reproduce any useful life cycles off planet - our only hope would be a human compatible biosphere on another planet where the germs didn't immediately kill us and the flora and fauna was compatible with our biology.

Essentially a human being as we understand them would not continue to exist unchanged - do we know the log term effects of a species changing gravitational environment? I'm with you in your belief we will get to the moon and we will get to Mars. There is a reason we can't take greater steps into the galaxy - its the fundamental restricting factor, the speed of light. While the speed of light is a constraint any realistic endeavours need to be made using generational ships which are a long way from scientific plausibility.

Our current understanding is the best it has ever been and we are rapidly approaching understanding our fundamental limits, many of the worlds space organisations have reoriented there goal over the previous decades. The problem is to get any further is not about new science, it is about completely breaking scientific models. Whatever you say about Relativity it is experimentally proven. C is a fundamental limit and I don't believe it can ever be broken - faster than C isn't just some arbitrary speed, it is an informational transfer limit.

No I still think we are 3 dimensional beings embedded in 4 dimensional space. The x, y, z coordinates can be changed for us but t always moves in the same direction. Time is not a dimension we can move in or around and arguably has no recourse without the first 3 dimensions.

 

[Droflet]

Erich von Däniken would get three books out of this lot.

 

[Nick B]

We move in time constantly. And time dilation (since you bring up relativity) means we experience and move in time diffrerently dependent upon subjective conditions. So time itself (and therefore values such as C are maleable, since it relies upon time) is maleable. To be frank, we simply dont understand it enough in order to make predictions about future technologies.

The destruction of our biosphere is not 'expected'. Eventualy, yes, but imminent? No. Possible, but not expected.

Generational starshis are a valid idea, if they are large enough. We can grow things in space.

 

[SilentRoamer]

We move in time constantly. And time dilation (since you bring up relativity) means we experience and move in time diffrerently dependent upon subjective conditions. So time itself (and therefore values such as C are maleable, since it relies upon time) is maleable. To be frank, we simply dont understand it enough in order to make predictions about future technologies.

The destruction of our biosphere is not 'expected'. Eventualy, yes, but imminent? No. Possible, but not expected.

Generational starshis are a valid idea, if they are large enough. We can grow things in space.

C is not malleable (or I prefer not variant) - one of the fundamental posits of relativity is that the speed of light is invariant from all reference frames. There may be observer bias but this is only ever experienced by the observer. If I travel at .9C and then I shine a light in front of me the light does not travel at .1C it travels at C, irrespective of my speed.

The sort of differences in time you are talking about are fairly irrelevant in terms of human spatial awareness - they only become apparent at relativistic speeds.

The destruction of the Biosphere is expected - it may be a long time in the future but it is definitely going to happen because of the life cycle of our sun.

Generational Starships are a valid idea I will grant that but what are we growing in space? Generational ships are essentially cities in space - you need a populace, a manufacturing base, food production (energy for this food which will disippate further from the sun - how would photosynthesis work?), waste management - were not even talking about the technical hurdles at the moment. A friend of mine over on PhysicsForums is an astrobiologist and we have discussed this at some length. In terms of growing things: The problem is this:

Plant A needs Germ B to grow properly.
Germ B requires Insect F as part of its lifecycle.
Insect F requires Plant CFD....

ad infinitum. Then there's the fuel, then there's the cosial aspect - how long will it take and compare that with the longest stable governments on earth?

We can make predictions about future technologies - its called Science Fiction!

I appreciate your optimism I just think it is misplaced.

 

[Nick B]

I prefer it to the alternative

 

[SilentRoamer]

I prefer it to the alternative

That's a fair point.

I have spoken to my wife about this quite a bit and she always says "If you really believe that then how can you live day to day with such a gloomy outlook" and my response is invariably "just because the universe is cold and uncaring it doesn't mean we should be, nor should it mean we despair - there is still beauty in life and life is only for living".

Thanks for the discussions Quellist - Brians thread led us from ancient monuments to generational starships - I feel this was a logical progression!

 

[BAYLOR]

Erich von Däniken would get three books out of this lot.

He can get at least an ongoing television series out of it.

Does anyone know when they will be doing a movie reboot of Chariots of the Gods?

 

[SilentRoamer]

Hey Quellist,

I am thinking about a blogpost relating to generation ships and their feasibility (or lackof IMO) and would be interested to use some quotes from this thread - I would of course attribute them appropriately.

Do you have any objection to this? If so its not a problem I am still dong the article I just won't reference you specifically.

No pressure either way.

Cheers

 

[Ray McCarthy]

Generation ships only have two real problems:
1) Cost (massive for any big enough)
2) Shielding (massive cost)

The tech to do it has existed maybe since 1960s. Considerably less fraught. Nuclear subs are small closed systems supplied less often than ISS and like a Generation ship rely on a reactor for power (not enough light on the journey for solar panels).

Chariots of the Gods

It's garbage, with faked and misrepresented evidence.

 

[Nick B]

Feel free @SilentRoamer, post a link or pm me please, I'd like to read it

 

[SilentRoamer]

Generation ships only have two real problems:
1) Cost (massive for any big enough)
2) Shielding (massive cost)

The tech to do it has existed maybe since 1960s. Considerably less fraught. Nuclear subs are small closed systems supplied less often than ISS and like a Generation ship rely on a reactor for power (not enough light on the journey for solar panels).

The technology to do it does not exist - I have discussed this with some of the guys over at Physics forums who were attached to the Orion Project and did a lot of research on shielding - the technology to shield a ship travelling at relativistic speeds just does not exist - at close to C a dust particle hits like a Nuke and while sure dust is fairly sparse in space it does exist. One of the major obstacles for any generational ship is environmental - where is all of the oxygen coming from? The food? The water? The repair and replacement of failed parts?

I would argue that the biosphere is a non trivial problem - we struggle to create stable ecosystems on earth and our understanding of our own ecosystems are actually limited - see my comments above regarding a functioning biosphere. Until you can create a stable environment all the other points are fairly moot.

Another major issue is fuel - especially if we want to stop. Remember fuel is needed to decelerate as well as accelerate as there is no friction in space so momentum is compound. Some of the analysis I have seen show the ship needs to be predominantly fuel, you also need more fuel for that fuel as well.

Comparisons to nuclear subs only go so far - nuclear subs can and do surface for refuelling and resupply. Generation ships are completely separate from any resource or resupply - once you set off you are effectively on your own.

I don't think the technology exists yet in a refined state - it is like saying that once we invente fireworks we had the required rocketry technology to get to the moon.

If you are interested and you have no problem with it could I quote you on the blogpost I am going to do - see upthread.

Feel free @SilentRoamer, post a link or pm me please, I'd like to read it

Thanks Quellist - it might be a while in the making but I post something.

 

[Droflet]

Generation ships only have two real problems:
1) Cost (massive for any big enough)
2) Shielding (massive cost)

The tech to do it has existed maybe since 1960s. Considerably less fraught. Nuclear subs are small closed systems supplied less often than ISS and like a Generation ship rely on a reactor for power (not enough light on the journey for solar panels).


It's garbage, with faked and misrepresented evidence.

Yes Ray, I was being flippant.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

Yes Ray, I was being flippant.

Passed me by ...
I've read a few SF with Gen ships and always been fascinated by the fact it's probably possible. But what would be the motivation for such astronomic cost (today)? At any time in the future using spaceships to evacuate Earth (other than the Cities in flight scenario) is impossible when you do the sums.
So when the people paying the bills don't know if the ship will ever reach anywhere habitable nor ever live to see success if it happened, why would they do it?

Would it be done to save an elite or by lottery to save "qualifying" people in event of some near future tragedy that was going to wipe out all life? The interesting SF story to my mind isn't so much the journey or arrival (typical topics), but the politics of creating one.

We could pick plausible destinations with better space based telescopes (planned right now) doing spectroscopic analysis of atmosphere and better determination of size and orbit. Current information isn't good enough.

 

[Tulius Hostilius]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/nasa-puzzled-by-huge-8000-year-old-mystery-structures-in-kazakhstan-that-resemble-ancient-crop-a6717766.html

Good post Brian. I was completely unaware of this. I had no idea. The discovery is also quite recent (in historical terms). You make some posts that in some ways are brainstormers!

You know, we're so clever that I'm not particularly worried about extinction through environmental damage ... not of our species, anyway. Sure, we'll probably end up suffering greatly due to our negligence, but we (as a species, definitely not as individuals) will survive, possibly in ways that folks here and now can't even imagine. Oh, societies may collapse, and millions may die from starvation, but humans are smart and adaptable. Some of us will live.

I agree with this perspective. It is not necessarily the human specie that can be in danger, but the live in the planet as we see it today.
And in that, if we are pessimist, we are being realistic.

 

[PartialMitch]

It is not necessarily the human specie that can be in danger, but the live in the planet as we see it today.
And in that, if we are pessimist, we are being realistic.

Precisely! I fear more for the rest of the biosphere than for our species. Our creativity will protect us from most dangers, but very little is being done to protect the rest of our earthbound neighbors.