Seat-of-the-pants or outline writer?

[Hex]

Got an insight last night (in the pub, where the best insights often are) into planning. It's never worked for me before, but the writer-guy I was talking to showed me an interesting way of planning backwards from the antagonist's perspective, which gave things a context and a bit of structure but didn't spoil the protagonist's story for me. I'm hoping that one will be fun to write even though I won't be 100% pantsing this time.

 

[Dan Jones]

an interesting way of planning backwards from the antagonist's perspective, which gave things a context and a bit of structure but didn't spoil the protagonist's story for me.

Sounds interesting. What did this entail exactly? Do you mean starting from the end, so to speak, from a different character's perspective, and then trying to establish the causality that led to that inevitable point?

 

[ratsy]

I've thought about writing the last 10,000 or so words of my current book because I really feel like I know what I want to do, and then I can connect the first half to the end. I doubt I will do this, but I've been tempted.

 

[Hex]

Sounds interesting. What did this entail exactly? Do you mean starting from the end, so to speak, from a different character's perspective, and then trying to establish the causality that led to that inevitable point?

He used the example of how the Harry Potter books are actually about Voldemort. Once you see the overall structure as Voldemort's rise and eventual defeat (and how that happens), it's quite a fun way to think about structuring things. So we started with the antagonist, his desires and reasons, the effect those have on the world, and why the protagonist is the right person to oppose him.

 

[Dan Jones]

Ok, cool. Thanks for that, that's an interesting approach. So, for example, Star Wars would be exactly the same thing, right? The real story is about Vader, and how the circumstances arise for Luke to emerge as the perfect opposition.

 

[EricCMack]

I really thought I was a pantser, until I got stuck and then outlined to get unstuck. It's been infinitely easier going since I gave myself that structure.

 

[Hex]

So, for example, Star Wars would be exactly the same thing, right? The real story is about Vader, and how the circumstances arise for Luke to emerge as the perfect opposition.

Yep, exactly (that was the other example he used).

So now I can write my discovery stuff with the protagonist, and know roughly where I'm going, which is interesting. We'll see if it works...

 

[StuartBurchell]

Ok, cool. Thanks for that, that's an interesting approach. So, for example, Star Wars would be exactly the same thing, right? The real story is about Vader, and how the circumstances arise for Luke to emerge as the perfect opposition.

Actually, Star Wars is about the rise and fall of Emperor Palpatine. SPOILERS

Episode 1, he becomes the Chancellor at the end.
Episode 2, he creates the perfect army loyal to him.
Episode 3, he destroys the Jedi and declares himself Emperor.
Episode 4, he unveils his superweapon (which unfortunately got a little broken)
Episode 5, he tells his most loyal champion of the threat to his person, seek-locate-eliminate
Episode 6, he gets a bigger, improved superweapon and his ego gets out of line and his most loyal champion kills him.
Episode 8, you can't keep a good villain down (Ian McDiarmid is reportedly an actor for Episode 8)

 

[Tim Murray]

I really thought I was a pantser, until I got stuck and then outlined to get unstuck. It's been infinitely easier going since I gave myself that structure.

Welcome to Chrons! You won't find better support for your projects.

 

[thaddeus6th]

Stuart, I know it's not canon any more, but in the expanded universe there is at least one story where Palpatine, I think, has a surviving clone.

 

[Nick B]

I outline vaguely, start, middle, end. Usually fills 3 or 4 paragraphs, after that its pants all the way. When things really start to flow, i even go commando.

 

[Edward M. Grant]

I mostly make things up as I go now, which tends to create more interesting plots than trying to work it out from the start, but does require me to go back and rewrite significant chunks of the book when I realize I'm heading for a dead end. I tried outlining, but I just found that made the writing boring, as I always knew where I was going... once I'd written a one-paragraph summary of the chapter, I no longer felt a need to write that chapter.

One interesting suggestion I read a few months ago was to start by working out the middle of the story, and work from there to the start and end. In many respects, the middle is the most important part, because it should point to the end, and the beginning has to get you there.

I'm also leaning toward using more descriptive titles rather than trying to be smart, so I don't forget what the story is meant to be about .

 

[Hex]

I tried outlining, but I just found that made the writing boring, as I always knew where I was going... once I'd written a one-paragraph summary of the chapter, I no longer felt a need to write that chapter.

Yes. This. All my interest goes into the planning and I get bored by the joining-the-dots process afterwards.

 

[crystal haven]

Mostly a pantser. I need to discover the story as I go along or it loses the depth and the characters read a bit wooden. My stories are very character driven. It creates a lot of editing later on, though.

 

[LittleStar]

Yes. This. All my interest goes into the planning and I get bored by the joining-the-dots process afterwards.

I find this quite an alien concept, at least in my current frame of mind.

I used to write whatever came to mnd and never even think about the story. Then I started plotting just in my head first, roughly where I want the story to end up and whatever cool scene pop up in the proccess.

But, im trying something new this time. I'm currently planning detailed notes scene for scene, sometimes phrases in speech, and vague descriptions of action for a four book series, and am half way through book three at the moment. This isn't just one paragraph per scene either, I'm talking probably close to thirty pages of detail each for books one and two. And I'm raring to get the story down still, come the new year.

I haven't left room for character expansion during my writing, I know what they are doing pretty much all the time, but that doesn't mean they won't throw in some curve ball lines of speech along the way. Knowing the plot back to front isn't enough to curb my enthusiam for writing the rest. With the framwork of plot already in place, I can focus on the pretty parts, writing the descriptions of scenes, the conversations, the action, bringing my world to life. Yes the story and plot have to take the point, but they don't have to be the sole focus of my writing, and I certainly don't have to dig deep to discover it while I'm in the mood for writing buckets at each sitting.

It remains to be seen whether I can manage what I plan in Jan/Feb, but at the moment I'm very much positive about is approach to my writing and think it might be the way forward for me for here on. I look back onthe discoreery writing I did when I was younger and still do love to write like that, you can get some great stuff at way, but for me the story has to be thought out properly first.



Though maybe this is all because I know I'm just awful at editing my own stuff, so if I write it by the pants... Up till now it mostly stays by the pants

 

[ratsy]

You should have seen the surprise on my face yesterday when my character did something crazy and unexpected...I mean I think I needed to do it for the progression of the book, but he still surprised me with it.

 

[PartialMitch]

You should have seen the surprise on my face yesterday when my character did something crazy and unexpected...I mean I think I needed to do it for the progression of the book, but he still surprised me with it.

Moments like those are priceless. I'm an outliner (to the point of madness) but I'm always open to the unexpected. IMHO, all of my outlines and notes are for verisimilitude and continuity, but the act of writing should be as free to forge new paths as possible.

One character in particular (a very strong young lady) often seems totally out of control. I love it though. It means that she's grown beyond my planning; she's got a life of her own. Those moments—when the story tells itself and we writers are just taking notes—are the times when the muse really sings.

 

[Tim Murray]

I find this quite an alien concept, at least in my current frame of mind.

I used to write whatever came to mnd and never even think about the story. Then I started plotting just in my head first, roughly where I want the story to end up and whatever cool scene pop up in the proccess.

But, im trying something new this time. I'm currently planning detailed notes scene for scene, sometimes phrases in speech, and vague descriptions of action for a four book series, and am half way through book three at the moment. This isn't just one paragraph per scene either, I'm talking probably close to thirty pages of detail each for books one and two. And I'm raring to get the story down still, come the new year.

I haven't left room for character expansion during my writing, I know what they are doing pretty much all the time, but that doesn't mean they won't throw in some curve ball lines of speech along the way. Knowing the plot back to front isn't enough to curb my enthusiam for writing the rest. With the framwork of plot already in place, I can focus on the pretty parts, writing the descriptions of scenes, the conversations, the action, bringing my world to life. Yes the story and plot have to take the point, but they don't have to be the sole focus of my writing, and I certainly don't have to dig deep to discover it while I'm in the mood for writing buckets at each sitting.

It remains to be seen whether I can manage what I plan in Jan/Feb, but at the moment I'm very much positive about is approach to my writing and think it might be the way forward for me for here on. I look back onthe discoreery writing I did when I was younger and still do love to write like that, you can get some great stuff at way, but for me the story has to be thought out properly first.



Though maybe this is all because I know I'm just awful at editing my own stuff, so if I write it by the pants... Up till now it mostly stays by the pants

I did much the same for the second book, though not quite as detailed. It helped me stay on track. Sometimes the chapters switched, but the story arc stayed true. [IMO] I found that an outline gives structure without pigeon holing the characters.

 

[HareBrain]

I'm a lilypadder. I usually have some idea of the general shape, and key ideas for a few scenes or even paragraphs (not necessarily the start and the end). I then work to get from one lilypad to the next

I do this too, and sometimes getting from one pad to the next involves rather more in the way of tortuous plotting than I would like, and a lot of my work then goes into trying to smooth and simplify things so as to give the impression that I might, possibly, have intended it all from the start. I quite like it, though, because I enjoy problem-solving, and a lot of my favourite stuff has been forged in this crucible of necessity.

 

[Hex]

I find this quite an alien concept, at least in my current frame of mind.

I think, as my writing tutor likes to say, you know your own process. Or, you know, whatever works for you. I'd like to be able to plan, but I can't, so I edit instead.