Arrogant critics?

Maybe "magic" was the wrong work to use about Bombadil. But he does perform powerful acts of a supernatural nature, whatever you want to call him/them. In a very few pages he: rescues the hobbits from Old Man Willow; shows himself immune to the powers of the Ring - and in fact, makes it turn invisible, as I recall; and rescues the hobbits again, from the Barrow Wights. The last I find particularly troublesome because it's so convenient and not really do with authority over his realm - the Barrow Wights don't feel like part of the Old Forest in the way that Old Man Willow does.

Bombadil feels a bit like Beorn to me - and seems more suited to The Hobbit really, with its succession of larger-than-life characters living in the Wild, all of them powerful in very different ways - whereas the LOTR is about a War between various peoples. But that's just my own take on it, I know. (I hate to be in this position of seeming to argue against LOTR in any way - its one of my very most favourite books of all time!)
 
Would it be good to import this discussion of Bombadil to this place?

Tom Bombadil

--since we're not really talking about critics (arrogant or otherwise) vis-a-vis old Tom.
 
...the morality is fairly clear cut, in terms of what they have to do, so there's not a lot of soul-searching or internal conflict....this is not at all a "modern" sensibility, which puts a lot more stress on internal character struggles and autonomy. ....

What I'm trying to suggest, is that it's this morally unambiguous/noble/heroic/Homeric quality that maybe gets Tolkien into trouble with the critics, for whom character complexity/ambiguity/nuance is seen as a necessity. To modern ears, the idea of a character acting "nobly" almost sounds like a joke. But the Iliad has worn pretty well. Different stories have power for different reasons, and I don't think harking back to a pre-modern form of storytelling makes Tolkien "trivial", as Pullman claims.

Thanks for these thoughts -- here are some further, related ones.

1.When people object to all of the good characters being good (but Boromir?), I wonder what their experience has been. My own has been that, throughout my life, my family and often my friends have behaved well, dependably. Contra what some people apparently would assume, these people haven't been prigs or hypocrites. Nor are they necessarily outstanding exemplars of the virtues; their lives wouldn't make for movie versions with wide appeal. But they have been consistent: generally patient, honest, reasonably diligent, and chaste. Conversely, any cop would probably tell you that the people who break the law are often repeat offenders, and, likely enough, got into trouble as kids before they did anything that earned them criminal records. There seems thus a degree of plausibility for LotR's presentation of people who generally do good, and others who are bad.

2.Moving the discussion from ordinary life experience to that of art: no one will deny that great art may be written about the inner struggles of fictional characters, but perhaps few would insist that great art can only ever deal with characters who have great inner struggles. If they do thus insist, they will have to pay the price of dismissing much that the world has thought was great literature.

3.Moving the discussion from art in general to that of a particular work of fantastic imagination called The Lord of the Rings, we should ask whether this particular book would be enhanced by such character portrayal. Would it be better, as the type of work it is -- an imaginary-world quest romance, a tale of Faerie, a work of "super science fiction" as one reviewer called it -- if Tolkien had devoted more paragraphs to character development of this particular type? I would go on to ask which characters specifically "ought to" have had such development. Whose character portrayal in the book as it stands is manifestly inadequate? What scenes fall flat because the characters are not rendered in this way? What themes are obviously starved for the substance that they need and that would have been there if Tolkien had developed some characters in this way? I don't find obvious answers to this. What I have found is that as I have grown older and my experience has included more people, my sense of the depth in the book we have, including the depth in some characters, has been enhanced. I was less intrigued by the character of Eowyn at 15 than at 55, for example.

It seems to me that LotR holds up very well without a lot of special pleading. One has no wish to have been able to cry "Gotcha!" to Prof. Tolkien. His book isn't flawless even on its own terms; a thing that bothers me a little is: what happened to all the rock that the dwarves quarried out of Moria? But in general and with regard to innumerable specifics it really is a masterpiece and I don't suppose it will ever be surpassed in its kind.
 
IIRC, Pullman's specific criticism of Tolkien vs. Lewis is due to Tolkien's Catholicism against Lewis's Protestant outlook. Pullman doesn't like either of them because they are conservative Christians, but he is, if you will, a Protestant atheist, not a Catholic one. ;)

The Dark Materials is based on that pre-eminently Protestant writer, Milton- even the name of the trilogy and the titles of the individual books (which I rate as great, meh, and bleh, in that order). Pullman's complaint is that Tolkien's world is too ordered; it is the Magesterium, where every question has been answered and all you have to do is follow the rules. Lewis on the other hand, for Pullman at least, has more of the Protestant individual struggle in a dark and disordered world where we can't see things clearly and have to rely on Faith, as in Puddleglum's speech to the Queen of the Underworld.

Unfortunately none of the discussions with Pullman have pushed him to clarify this- not even the one with the Archbishop of Canterbury.
 
Piled up on the Lothlorien (southern?) facing side of the mountain?

Dumped down the cracks leading to the roots of the mountain. We are told dark things gnawed in the bowels of the earth there long before the Dwarves came. So you're a Balrog having a nice quiet thousand-year nap, and then half a building site gets dumped on your head...
 
Emeth relating his conversation with Aslan

Proving indeed Narnia is a fable, a fairy tale, and not Christian Allegory, because this is certainly not the theology in Lewis's books of Christian Apologetics.
Any references? AFAIK Lewis was an Inclusivist, if definitely not a Universalist. The only thing I can remember of him on the subject was a letter in which he says that it is horrible to contemplate ordinary decent people undergoing eternal damnation for lack of belief and he hopes it isn't so, but we just have to rely on the essential Goodness of God and leave it in His hands.

Though I just remembered the end of That Hideous Strength he describes a don being pulled down to hell, even though he was personally so honest and moral that he would walk two hours to return an extra sixpence he'd been given in change- but he taught nihilism to his students, so he deserved it.
 
What I'm trying to suggest, is that it's this morally unambiguous/noble/heroic/Homeric quality that maybe gets Tolkien into trouble with the critics, for whom character complexity/ambiguity/nuance is seen as a necessity. To modern ears, the idea of a character acting "nobly" almost sounds like a joke. But the Iliad has worn pretty well. Different stories have power for different reasons, and I don't think harking back to a pre-modern form of storytelling makes Tolkien "trivial", as Pullman claims.

The point I'd disagree with here is that Tolkien's heroism is 'Homeric'. As you point out, the 'nobility' of the Iliad and the nobility of Tolkien characters are very different. The morality of Tolkien is Christian; there's Good and Evil and you know which side you're on, or should be on; whereas Homeric morality is baseness vs aristocratic virtue. No-one in the Iliad is evil, and there's a great difference between Aragorn and Achilles.

For example, the first moral conflict is between Achilles and Agamemnon over the beautiful captive Briseis; Achilles has killed her father, mother, husband and brothers and made her a sex-slave. Agamemnon demands her as spoil of war, and it is very clear that he is in the wrong- because he wants her as a sex-slave without having personally murdered her father, mother etc., which would have given him a legitimate claim.

So yes, critics who dislike Tolkien may do so because of the (often literally) black and white nature of his characters. They are wrong because not all types of literature should be alike or appeal to the same people- for example I can't stand Dickens, largely because of what Orwell describes as Dickens' use of 'flat' characters as opposed to 'round' ones. To some modern critics Tolkien writes very 'flat' indeed.
 
The point I'd disagree with here is that Tolkien's heroism is 'Homeric'. As you point out, the 'nobility' of the Iliad and the nobility of Tolkien characters are very different. The morality of Tolkien is Christian; there's Good and Evil and you know which side you're on, or should be on; whereas Homeric morality is baseness vs aristocratic virtue. No-one in the Iliad is evil, and there's a great difference between Aragorn and Achilles.

Yes, you are right of course - the Iliad is about aristocratic warriors, whose moral code is all about honour, glory, status. The analogy with LOTR breaks down pretty quickly if taken too far. But on a certain level there is something that struck me as similar - that the characters and what they need to do are very much defined by their roles, and that defines what they aim to do, and that there is actually something inspiring in this, and in their very lack of ambiguity/self-questioning/self development.

Of course, in Tolkien there are characters who do wrestle somewhat with their choices and emotions, I'd suggest Sam and Gollum particularly, and in a way I think that's also more powerful because it's against this background of fairly clearly defined, unambiguous characters.

But maybe I just like Tolkien a lot, and I'm rationalising that.

So yes, critics who dislike Tolkien may do so because of the (often literally) black and white nature of his characters. They are wrong because not all types of literature should be alike or appeal to the same people- for example I can't stand Dickens, largely because of what Orwell describes as Dickens' use of 'flat' characters as opposed to 'round' ones. To some modern critics Tolkien writes very 'flat' indeed.

Interesting. I can't stand Dickens either. I've never been sure why but also feel its to do with the characters - I especially can't stand his female characters. So will be interested to chase that Orwell reference. And yet Tolkien's characters I like, hmm.
 
It's in an essay called "Charles Dickens". Orwell's observations on Dickens are really interesting. I don't know what he'd have made of LOTR - I doubt he would have liked it at all, to be honest.
 
Though I just remembered the end of That Hideous Strength he describes a don being pulled down to hell, even though he was personally so honest and moral that he would walk two hours to return an extra sixpence he'd been given in change- but he taught nihilism to his students, so he deserved it.

I've read THS ten times and didn't remember this, and checked a copy just now and didn't find it...
 
I've read THS ten times and didn't remember this, and checked a copy just now and didn't find it...

Right at the end, when the NICE is being destroyed. He describes the professor as a personally very honest man, using the example of returning the excess change- might have been a threepenny bit- but one who has corrupted his students.
 
I looked at the end of the novel again, Galanx, and still don't find this bit. Certainly Lewis could have imagined a man who held to his personal code of ethics but who disbelieved in, even despised the idea of, truth. Kind of like Pilate.
 
Hmm, I was sure it was in there. Maybe I'm remembering it from somewhere else- but I was positive it was by Lewis, and it doesn't seem to fit into any of his others...but, if it's not, it's not.
 
Ah, this (Chapter 17):

I wanted to ask about Edgestow," said Mother Dimble. "Aren't Merlin and the eldils a trifle . . . well, wholesale. Did all Edgestow deserve to be wiped out?"

"Who are you lamenting?' said MacPhee. "The jobbing town council that'd have sold their own wives and daughters to bring the N.I.C.E. to Edgestow?"

"Well, I don't know much about them," said she. "But in the university. Even Bracton itself. We all knew it was a horrible College, of course. But did they really mean any great harm with all their fussy little intrigues? Wasn't it more silly than anything else?"

"Och aye," said MacPhee. "They were only playing themselves. Kittens letting on to be tigers. But there was a real tiger about, and their play ended by letting her in. It'll learn them not to keep bad company."

"Well, then, the fellows of other colleges. What about Northumberland and Duke's?"

"I know," said Denniston. "One's sorry for a man like Churchwood. I knew him well; he was an old dear. All his lectures were devoted to proving the impossibility of ethics, though in private life he'd have walked ten miles rather than leave a penny debt unpaid. But all the same . . . was there a single doctrine practised at Belbury which hadn't been preached by some lecturer at Edgestow? Oh, of course, they never thought anyone would act on their theories! But it was their own child coming back to them: grown up and unrecognisable, but their own."

"I'm afraid it's all true, my dear," said Dimble. "Trahison des clercs. None of us are quite innocent."

"You are all forgetting," said Grace, " that nearly everyone, except the very good (who were ripe for fair dismissal) and the very bad, had already left Edgestow. But I agree with Arthur. Those who have forgotten Logres sink into Britain. Those who call for Nonsense will find that it comes."
 
Ah! Thank you, Galanx, for tracking down the passage you were thinking of and for providing it with context.
 
"All his lectures were devoted to proving the impossibility of ethics, though in private life he'd have walked ten miles rather than leave a penny debt unpaid."
c. f. "The Great Divorce."
 
I think more that nothing has power over him. He's not a power in a conventional sense. I don't think he's neutral, just not very interested. He did help the hobbits. He may have forgotten them later?

He seems almost like a mystical hippie.:)
 

Back
Top