Rudyard Kipling

[Ray McCarthy]

Much maligned as Jingoistic. I've read loads of his books since a teenager (this year I re-read Stalky & Co and Puck of Pook's Hill) and I don't think he deserves the "sneers". I didn't realise till I read this article that he won a Nobel Prize.

He wrote:
All good people agree,
And all good people say,
All nice people, like Us, are We,
And everyone else is They:
But if you cross over the sea,
Instead of over the way,
You may end by (think of it) looking on
We
As only a sort of They!

Rudyard Kipling: an unexpected revival for the ‘bard of empire’

Kipling, the “bard of empire”, has always been difficult to place in the cultural pantheon. Britain, too, has done remarkably little to officially mark the sesquicentenary of its first winner (in 1907) of the Nobel prize for literature (and still the youngest ever from anywhere).

A few more of those apparent incongruities spring easily to mind: the propagandist for Britain’s colonial ventures, as well as for the Boer and first world wars, who could sympathise with the plight of the women left behind in “Harp Song of the Dane Women”: “What is a woman that you forsake her, / And the hearth-fire and the home-acre, / To go with the old grey Widow-maker?”; the opponent of Indian self-determination who wrote sensitively of individual Indians in stories such as “Lisbet” and “Beyond the Pale”; the conservative supporter of the established order who poked fun at the hypocrisies of the Raj establishment in his Plain Tales from the Hills.

 

[hitmouse]

Kipling is very good. Too much of the criticism is lazy recycled post-colonial pc which pays very little attention to the qualities of his writing.

 

[Hex]

I loved Kipling when I was a child -- The Jungle Book, obviously (knew all the poems by heart), and Kim, and especially Rikki Tikki Tavi. Not sure I read much else of his (some poems). However, I haven't read him for years -- I worry that his books wouldn't be as wonderful as I remember them.

I like a lot of his writing but he's sometimes... um. Let's say 'dated' (which is fair enough -- he was writing at a time/ as part of a culture we now have little sympathy with). Unless I misunderstand The White Man's Burden, of course, which is possible since I find myself wincing as I read it.

 

[BAYLOR]

Ive read Kim, The Jungle books, Captains Courageous . He's great.

 

[Extollager]

There's a thread on Kipling here

Rudyard Kipling: Weird Tale Master and Much More

for those who want more on this excellent author.

 

[Vince W]

Kipling should not be ignored. Great writing and interesting stories. Even his poetry is quite good. I enjoy it for what it is and ignore all the PC hand wringing.

 

[BAYLOR]

Kipling should not be ignored. Great writing and interesting stories. Even his poetry is quite good. I enjoy it for what it is and ignore all the PC hand wringing.

PC correct seem to ruin so many good things.

 

[aThenian]

I just remember that poem "If". Begins something like "If you can keep your head when all around you..." and finishes up, "What's more, you'll be a man, my son!" Hated it as a kid, but now I wonder, was it supposed to be tongue-in-cheek?

 

[Hex]

In the UK at least, Kipling is still quite popular, so I don't think he's been ruined by "political correctness". I also think (and I'm aware you know this, so I won't go on) that what makes Kipling a little more difficult to read now is knowledge of how much damage the beliefs of his time did to so many people.

We know this, and we read Kipling with that knowledge of how the whole White Man's Burden stuff turned out. That's just reading with a knowledge of the history.

 

[BAYLOR]

In the UK at least, Kipling is still quite popular, so I don't think he's been ruined by "political correctness". I also think (and I'm aware you know this, so I won't go on) that what makes Kipling a little more difficult to read now is knowledge of how much damage the beliefs of his time did to so many people.

We know this, and we read Kipling with that knowledge of how the whole White Man's Burden stuff turned out. That's just reading with a knowledge of the history.

Read and enjoy but keep negatives in mind, Im fine with that and long as they don't take him out of the schools

 

[Hex]

We all did "If..." at school. I don't know if they teach any of Kipling's work later on, but they certainly teach The Merchant of Venice at school, so I suspect it's issues other than political correctness.

Do you think Kipling should be taught? Or is there a risk of some of his colonial views appearing kind of rude in the modern world? I am happy to read Kipling to my kids and discuss his points of view and where they came from, but I'm not 100% sure I'd be happy for the school to do it. I don't want my kids picking up the idea that white people (and men) are inherently superior, and I think that's a risk when you read some of the poetry without context and discussion.

 

[BAYLOR]

We all did "If..." at school. I don't know if they teach any of Kipling's work later on, but they certainly teach The Merchant of Venice at school, so I suspect it's issues other than political correctness.

Do you think Kipling should be taught? Or is there a risk of some of his colonial views appearing kind of rude in the modern world? I am happy to read Kipling to my kids and discuss his points of view and where they came from, but I'm not 100% sure I'd be happy for the school to do it. I don't want my kids picking up the idea that white people (and men) are inherently superior, and I think that's a risk when you read some of the poetry without context and discussion.

As work of literature yes, because he's a major literary figure . His stone age viewpoints and attitudes are another matter completely. Those do need to be explained in the contest of the time they were written and criticized.

The problem you run into is, if you eliminate books because they are not PC correct , you end up with a lot less to read . I think that would not be beneficial to anyone. Classical literature is what it is warts and all.

 

[Extollager]

His stone age viewpoints and attitudes are another matter completely.

You are thinking of which particular works?

Doesn't Kipling deserve something better than that we should simply assume that, well, hrrrummph, of course everyone knows he held deplorable views, ones I would never have let come near me -- etc.?

Let's not take it as a given that he held "stone age viewpoints and attitudes," but, if the matter is to be discussed at all, let's do the work and get down to cases. Otherwise we are not so much saying something meaningful about Kipling as flattering ourselves for our virtues.

And -- "stone age"? I'm reminded of Owen Barfield's remark about "that luckless dustbin of pseudo-scientific fantasies -- the mind of primitive man" (Poetic Diction, 3rd ed., p. 74; but see also Barfield's Saving the Appearances).

I'm afraid your use of "stone age" invites a request also to clarify what you mean, to explain the basis for your notions of what "stone age" people (which ones? where?) may have thought, etc.

 

[BAYLOR]

You are thinking of which particular works?

Doesn't Kipling deserve something better than that we should simply assume that, well, hrrrummph, of course everyone knows he held deplorable views, ones I would never have let come near me -- etc.?

Let's not take it as a given that he held "stone age viewpoints and attitudes," but, if the matter is to be discussed at all, let's do the work and get down to cases. Otherwise we are not so much saying something meaningful about Kipling as flattering ourselves for our virtues.

And -- "stone age"? I'm reminded of Owen Barfield's remark about "that luckless dustbin of pseudo-scientific fantasies -- the mind of primitive man" (Poetic Diction, 3rd ed., p. 74; but see also Barfield's Saving the Appearances).

I'm afraid your use of "stone age" invites a request also to clarify what you mean, to explain the basis for your notions of what "stone age" people (which ones? where?) may have thought, etc.

Stone age is a bit harsh. Given his attitudes about race and the British empire , he had the prejudices common to his era.

 

[anno]

Makes exceedingly good tales...

 

[Ray McCarthy]

let's do the work and get down to cases.

As undoubtedly he held views about many things (some appear mutually opposed today!). Also his views about war in South Africa in 1890s likely were revised by WWI. More than many people of his era he didn't neatly fit one category, nor did he always hold the same views. Amazing though that he had views that both annoyed G.K. Chesterton and George Orwell. Obviously not just Post Colonial Politically Correct people, but diverse people by the 1930s admired his story telling and other irritated by him (sometimes both).

Stalky & Co. is an intriguing Boarding School story (set in a Private School, i.e. run like a business, not a Public School with a Board and religious people. A Public School was more select than a Private School, both required fees). Part II covers the exploits of Stalky & Co in India/Afghanistan. Both parts have quite unexpected content if you think Kipling was mere Jingoist.

 

[BAYLOR]

Makes exceedingly good tales...

Agreed.

 

[steelyglint]

I used to live in the building where he went to school in 1878 - the United Services College in Westward Ho! The stories in 'Stalky & Co.' are based on that time.

.

 

[Extollager]

I'm still waiting for discussion of specific stories or poems by Kipling that are specimens of reprehensible wishes, etc. Otherwise it seems objectors to Kipling are merely repeating what they have heard to be the right-thinking attitude towards this author. Is repeating things in that fashion good for one's mental hygiene?

 

[Hex]

Well, I mentioned The White Man's Burden above. Does that count?