Rudyard Kipling

Charlotte and Emily Brontë, Elizabeth Gaskell, George MacDonald, Rider Haggard at his best
All on the shelves here. Though I've not read Elizabeth Gaskell (wife has). I have many others here I didn't mention that are great. Perhaps a thread for less well known good Victorian authors. There are also Americans of the era still read... Mark Twain (Clemens), Louisa M. Alcott, Susan Coolidge (Sarah Chauncey Woolsey).
I'm not keen at all on Thomas Hardy, though he's still read.
 
Well, so far from your list I have only read A BANK FRAUD (thought I'd start at the top), but I'd be up for a casual-type reading/ discussing if anyone else is.


(I love Gaskell -- especially NORTH AND SOUTH, and I like most of the Brontes, though I'm not a fan of WUTHERING HEIGHTS. I don't enjoy Hardy, though I've read most of them -- but I like his poetry. I don't think I've read any George MacDonald (EDIT: except THE PRINCESS AND THE GOBLIN), and although I've read Ridder Haggard, I don't remember much of it).
 
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If we're moving towards reading some Kipling stories, let me point out a source for helpful notes:

New Readers' Guide

Kipling is an allusive writer, and the notes will be helpful.
 
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Thank you! In fact, I understood the allusions in A Bank Fraud (or got them from the context), but I guessed the point of the story was Reggie's behaviour despite Riley's awfulness, and the play on the idea of a 'bank fraud'?
 
I'm reading through the stories in The Man Who Would be King collection. I didn't know much of Kipling's work beyond Kim and the Jungle Book, and I'm very impressed. The guy could really write. And it's clear that he was a fine journalist as well. His observations of behaviour are second to none. The stories also have a much darker tone than I credited Kipling with, along with a biting humour. Really a tremendous writer, and one who is sadly disparaged over matters that having nothing do with his writing, or even with what the man actually did and said in his life. He has become a scapegoat for a whole system of government employed by a dozen countries over two centuries. The funny thing is Kipling was deeply immersed in the life of Indians of all walks of life, and understood their values and concerns. And he was evidently more in touch with middle and lower caste Indians, and sympathetic to their concerns, than upper caste Indians were. It's funny how the whole caste thing is swept under the rug when colonialism and prejudice come up, as though regarding yourself as superior to others is a peculiarly Western defect.
 
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I liked IN FLOOD TIME, though it depends quite heavily on knowing about India. Kind of topical, given the floods we're having!


(and it's quite interesting for me, since I'm stuck most of the time in novel-brain, to see how free short stories can be -- like a window into another's experience without the novel's structure)

EDIT: Just finished ON GREENHOW HILL. Not sure if I love it more than I hate it... The former, I think.
 
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Thank you! In fact, I understood the allusions in A Bank Fraud (or got them from the context), but I guessed the point of the story was Reggie's behaviour despite Riley's awfulness, and the play on the idea of a 'bank fraud'?

Also Kipling was saying something about the loyalty that emerges in trying circumstances. There's some exposition of this idea at the beginning of "The Phantom 'Rickshaw," as I recall: something to the effect that the same British in India who will indulge in petty spite, etc., will go to heroic lengths on another Brit's behalf in time of severe illness, etc. if need be.
 
I liked IN FLOOD TIME, though it depends quite heavily on knowing about India. Kind of topical, given the floods we're having!

I wondered if in the back of Kipling's mind was the phrase from the Song of Songs, about how many waters cannot drown love.
 
EDIT: Just finished ON GREENHOW HILL. Not sure if I love it more than I hate it... The former, I think.

What a performance from Kipling -- such control of content and tone, such depth of felt life, more than you'd get from the whole book in the case of many novels.
 
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Take up the White Man’s burden—
Send forth the best ye breed—
Go send your sons to exile
To serve your captives' need
To wait in heavy harness
On fluttered folk and wild—
Your new-caught, sullen peoples,
Half devil and half child
Take up the White Man’s burden
In patience to abide
To veil the threat of terror
And check the show of pride;
By open speech and simple
An hundred times made plain
To seek another’s profit
And work another’s gain
Take up the White Man’s burden—
And reap his old reward:
The blame of those ye better
The hate of those ye guard—
The cry of hosts ye humour
(Ah slowly) to the light:
"Why brought ye us from bondage,
“Our loved Egyptian night?”
Take up the White Man’s burden-
Have done with childish days-
The lightly proffered laurel,
The easy, ungrudged praise.
Comes now, to search your manhood
Through all the thankless years,
Cold-edged with dear-bought wisdom,
The judgment of your peers!

While I love Kipling- partIcularly "Kim"- there is no doubt that he was a racist who believed in the superiority of whites and pushed the line that the British were in India to 'do good' rather than sweat a profit out of the place.

"Half-devil and half-child"?
 
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George Orwell: Rudyard Kipling

George Orwell's review is generally excellent, even though he rather implausibly tries to read "lesser breeds without the Law" as an attack on the Germans (Orwell was writing in 1942 when he was a propagandist at the BBC- the line before it "such boastings as the Gentiles use" is more probable; "the Law" pretty obviously refers to Christian, or at least Biblical, teachings.)

but excerpts such as this

But because he identifies himself with the official class, he does possess one thing which ‘enlightened’ people seldom or never possess, and that is a sense of responsibility. The middle-class Left hate him for this quite as much as for his cruelty and vulgarity. All left-wing parties in the highly industrialized countries are at bottom a sham, because they make it their business to fight against something which they do not really wish to destroy. They have internationalist aims, and at the same time they struggle to keep up a standard of life with which those aims are incompatible. We all live by robbing Asiatic coolies, and those of us who are ‘enlightened’ all maintain that those coolies ought to be set free; but our standard of living, and hence our ‘enlightenment’, demands that the robbery shall continue.

are just as pertinent in this post-imperial times when workers in Bangla Desh perish in factory fires or Burmese are confined in slavery on fishboats so we can save a dollar on a T-shirt or 35 cents on a can of fish.
 
are just as pertinent in this post-imperial times when workers in Bangla Desh perish in factory fires or Burmese are confined in slavery on fishboats so we can save a dollar on a T-shirt or 35 cents on a can of fish.

The great majority of people in developing countries who work in manufacturing do so willingly and deliberately. It's a step up in life from the stultifying poverty of rural life, which we in the West have naive and romanticized notions about. They're essentially making the same decision our great-grandparents made. We might think we're being noble by saying they should give it up to return to the feces-sodden fields to churn out their days with no hope of material advancement. But nearly 1 billion people in the developing world have lifted themselves out of poverty in the last 25 years due to the opportunities of global trade, and they do not want to go back to living like their grandparents did.
 
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While I love Kipling- partIcularly "Kim"- there is no doubt that he was a racist who believed in the superiority of whites and pushed the line that the British were in India to 'do good' rather than sweat a profit out of the place.
To me, someone who's never knowingly seen that text before, it reads as if he's telling people that they're idiots to do what they do (or send their children to do) -- making money for one group of others by taking part in the oppression of another group of others -- and that they're too stupid to even realise that the poem is mocking them (for being thick racist dupes).

The line you quote -- "Half-devil and half-child" -- and two you didn't -- "By open speech and simple, An hundred times made plain" -- certainly suggest this (to me). Those last two lines bring to me the stereotypical image of an expat Brit or Yank (or <add your stereotype of choice>) repeating the same phrases over and over again (slower and slower, but with ever increasing volume) in English as if the non-English speakers they're addressing are sullenly, and wilfully, refusing to understand the words rather than simply not knowing what they mean.

And at the end, what drives these idiots? The judgement of their peers, i.e. other idiots (like those -- again stereotypical -- students who are said to mock their fellow students for paying attention in class, because doing well at school is, well, naff/not cool/whatever).

The burden these idiots take up is to be those in the front line when those being exploited show their resentment; those benefitting most from that exploitation are far away from any such bother.
 
I agree it reads like that now, but I don't think that's how it read at the time, nor have I seen any evidence suggesting Kipling meant it that way.

Yes, it's about people suffering in service to the colonies, but it's a noble sacrifice, or so most of Kipling's other work suggests. I would like to see evidence that he was being ironic, though, if there is some.
 
...nor have I seen any evidence suggesting Kipling meant it that way.
Is there evidence that he meant it to be taken the way you and galanx are doing? I suspect there isn't any evidence either way, other than the words of the poem. So let's look at them.

If we take the line -- "To seek another’s profit" -- as meaning those involved stealing from the colonised for their own benefit (rather than making someone back in the UK very rich), the poem looks contradictory. It wouldn't be a burden, but would simply be putting in some (minimal) effort to, in effect, steal the results of another's work and effort. Why would that be a burden? Surely it's a burden because someone else gains most of the rewards, while those on the front line get to feel good about being better than those they're oppressing**. But aside from that: why wouldn't those taking up that "burden" be thieves? They would be. (And being a thief is not a noble endeavour.) The only difference I'm suggesting is that they're people being paid to thieve for others; that just means that they're dupes as well as thieves.

That the poem is calling people to take up a burden, one that involves them being part of a massive engine of theft, looks like mockery. None of the words in the poem have changed their meaning since it was written (as far as I can tell). And so if those words look like mockery now, I'd want some strong direct evidence to make me believe that they weren't also mockery back then.


By the way, I'm not going to argue that Kipling was or wasn't a racist, either in the way we see things now or in the way they were seen back then. I simply don't know very much about the man, and certainly not enough to make a judgement on (any particular aspect of) his character.


** - In the same way that someone is pleased because someone else, of a different race, is even lower in the pecking order (another useful divide-and-rule situation; useful, that is, to those who are much closer to the top of the pecking order).
 
I think "To seek another's profit" actually refers to the people being colonised -- to those who benefit from the sacrifice made by America (in this case) and Great Britain in other cases. I don't think they saw themselves as thieves -- or not everyone did -- they saw themselves as marching into other people's countries for the benefit of the people they were invading and taking over. That's what makes Kipling so... ambiguous. He wrote beautiful, heartfelt work about the nobility and sacrifice of the white man who would work himself to death trying to civilize the rest of the world.

And that's what I think has changed -- that now we see the colonial project as a big exercise in theft. Back then, it wasn't so clear-cut. People like Kipling (probably) and many others (definitely) believed absolutely that white people were superior and their way of life was the best way of life, and they had a moral responsibility to force it (and Christianity) upon everyone else.

One piece of evidence, I think, is the way the poem was received at the time. Although you do have the evidence of its being read to argue against ratifying the Treaty of Paris (which is evidence in your favour!), there is Kipling's letter to Roosevelt which seems to be an argument in favour of taking over the Philippines for the "good" of the people who lived there.

While academics are a slippery lot and I wouldn't necessarily like to place 100% dependence on everything they write, there are people like these guys (JB Foster, RW McChesney - Monthly Review, 2003):

Kipling’s “White Man’s Burden,” subtitled “The United States and the Philippine Islands,” was published in McClure’s Magazine in February 1899. It was written when the debate over ratification of the Treaty of Paris was still taking place, and while the anti-imperialist movement in the United States was loudly decrying the plan to annex the Philippines. Kipling urged the United States, with special reference to the Philippines, to join Britain in the pursuit of the racial responsibilities of empire
(my emphasis)

And

Kipling's aim was to encourage the American government to take over the Philippines, one of the territorial prizes of the Spanish-American War, and rule it with the same energy, honor, and beneficence that, he believed, characterized British rule over the nonwhite populations of India and Africa. In September he had written to Roosevelt: "Now go in and put all the weight of your influence into hanging on permanently to the whole Philippines. America has gone and stuck a pickaxe into the foundations of a rotten house and she is morally bound to build the house over again from the foundations or have it fall about her ears." "The White Man's Burden" repeated this advice, adding a more abstract message about the white race's superiority and responsibility to the Filipinos and the other nonwhite peoples of the world.
Bratlinger (English Literature in Transition, 1880-1920, Volume 50, Number 2, 2007)

There are other examples (including the wikipedia article and this: Rudyard Kipling – The White Man's Burden, the comments of the Kipling Society itself: The White Man’s Burden and so on), which indicate that lots of people believe that he was being un-ironic in his support of the duty of white men to rule over others. I haven't done a proper survey -- this isn't my area -- but a random selection of the things that turn up in Google Scholar all seem to point the same way.

We know that at the time, there was a strong belief in social darwinism, and the inferiority of people who were not white upper class men. It wasn't accepted by everyone, but it was a very popular set of beliefs.

You also note little asides like in A BANK FRAUD the comment that native help can only be depended on to a very limited degree and to run a bank in India (for example) you need white men from the home country.

My inclination is to believe that if Kipling was being ironic, it backfired, and there isn't really any evidence from what he said at the time that he was being. It fits with the rest of his writing (apparently) and the weight of opinion seems to be heavily in favour of taking it at face value.

I just wondered if there had been other commentaries etc. that disagreed with this view, or if Kipling had clarified what he meant. Since most people seemed to feel he was supporting colonialism, it might have been something worth doing.
 
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It is a strange poem. Like Ursa I'd never heard it before, and like him, I would have interpeted it as ironic, especially lines like "half devil and half child", which I would have taken as describing an attitude espoused by those sending their "sons to exile" and not the opinion of anyone intelligent (which Kipling clearly was) who already lived there. I would also have taken "seek another's profit" the same way as Ursa, to mean exploitation. Without the ironic interpretation, it seems so over-the-top as to be ridiculous: not just to us now, but even (I would think) to many people then who broadly supported the British project in India. So the fact that there's no evidence that he did mean it ironically I find deeply odd, since if he had done, he would surely have made it clear that he did, given the evidence that people took it at face value.
 
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