Can anyone who makes the required effort become a “great writer”? I don’t think so.

Is there innate talent? Absolutely. But is it enough? I think not. Unique insight is probably just as important and that, I think, comes only from experience. War and Peace and Anna Karenina set in a society with which Tolstoy was intimately familiar. If I remember right, when he tried to write a novel in a earlier period, his effort ran aground because it was too distant from his own experience.

I am queasy about focusing on the innate talent of the writer rather than on the works, which are the sum total of talent, training, experience, editing, etc. Personally, I can tell if a work impressed me or not, but I couldn't necessarily tell if the writer was a genius or a grafter or lucky or whatever, unless the helpful hand of posterity pointed it out. :)
 
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There are certainly people whose writing works better for me. And I know the way I write pleases some people and makes others feel like they have sticky little feet trampling all over them. A lot is down to personal preference, like music.

But I also think some people hear language and the way it works more easily than others do, and (to me) other people have a tin ear for language. That doesn't, actually, mean they can't develop a clear and effective writing style but I will probably never read a sentence they have written over and over again marveling at it as I do with the people whose writing really, really works for me.

But as HareBrain pointed out, the ability to write wonderful prose is only one aspect of writing a good book -- you need all the other aspects too. And I haven't met anyone who didn't have one or more of those aspects -- people who couldn't write a sentence that pleased me, but had the most incredible imagination, or amazing characters, or a vision of how to structure a story or keep introducing conflicts or...

You get the idea. You can learn most of this stuff, but it takes lots of work (for most of us) and if some of us/you find bits easier than others do, then that's our/your good luck.

Apart from the urge to keep plowing on when all hope is gone, as it were, I think a big aspect is the confidence to recognise what we're good at. Often people who are genuinely good at writing don't recognise that about themselves (casts beady eye at usual suspects).
 
Imagination gives you the potential. Skill gives you the ability. Ambition needs motivation. Motivation needs time. Too much time leads to boredom. Boredom fuels imagination*.

Therefore:

A good book is written by an author with the imagination and skill to achieve their ambitions.


*So the studies would tell us.
 
The great Tom Lehrer once said that life was like a sewer, because what you got out of it depended on what you were willing to put into it. I think this is true to a fair extent in writing.

I see writing as quite like singing. A few people are completely tone deaf and will never be able to carry a tune, and a few people will always have a “tin ear” for writing, whether in style or technical ability. A few will sing perfectly or write brilliant prose from the start (which is not the same as writing a good book, as Kazuo Ishiguro pointed out a while ago). Most people can be trained to write quite decent prose and to plot a story to a good level. After all, most of writing a novel is just saying what happened next until the story ends.

[As an aside, I personally almost never try to write “fine prose”. I might have done in the past, but my aim now is to write clearly and immediately. Often this involves thinking “How can I present this idea better?” but I don’t attempt the sort of prose poetry that you might see in, say, a Ray Bradbury novel. If it turns out to be great prose as well as clear prose, then super, but that’s not my aim. I’m not sure if this is a good attitude, a bad one, or just a thing that I happen to do.]

I can sketch to a tolerable degree, and am quite good at cutting up model kits to make new model kits. I will never be a good artist or great modelmaker because I’m not inclined to put the effort in. Not because I’m lazy, but because doing so is just a fun thing to muck about with from time to time. It just doesn’t grip me the way writing does.

I also don’t think there’s a literal sliding scale in this. Even leaving aside bestsellers, which become bestsellers for all sorts of reasons unrelated to quality, the definition of what constitutes greatness is extremely variable. I can think of books that I find dull that are critically acclaimed, and others where the dialogue is awful but the ideas amazing. For a long time – if you ask me – you could get away with wooden prose and unconvincing characters in SF and in particular a certain sort of fantasy, and it would sell. Now you can’t, and calling it a literature of ideas won’t save you if the execution is poor (so much the better, too).

Also to be a great writer, do you need an important social theme, or to have lived in exciting times, or to have had a particular sort of life? None of these aspects relates to the quality of the prose, plotting or characters. My feeling is that being a great writer happens almost by accident, but being a very good writer is something you can work towards.
 
Toby, reminds me of what a university lecturer told me once (referring to statistical models, but also life):
If you put **** in, you get **** out.

[Self-moderated because I can't recall the precise limits here, so thought it best to err on the side of caution].

Talent, dedication and luck all have roles to play in success and failure. Dedication's the only one we can affect. Stubbornness can be an asset, provided it's determination rather than an unwillingness to accept suggestions and advice to improve your writing.
 
People never say "now there goes a natural born electrician" or "that man is a genius at doing the bins".

Indeed we ascribe terms like genius, natural talent toward those who display skills which we aspire to have or which we have failed to gain in life. However I also feel that we put too much weight on the concept of natural talent when it comes to the arts specifically and I think that is wrong but understandable on several counts.

1) Arts ARE poorly taught in schools. Both at the artistic and technical level it seems to be that school level art aspires to a very low skill level (I've seen photography GCSE and A-level projects which pass with good grades which are mostly "take one common photo and apply random Photoshop filters to it in a series"). With little proper teaching nor focus (the academic world doesn't like art for marking purposes) its an area where "natural talent" or interest is the only way to progress within the class.

2) Art is something many of us don't study nor do seriously. Especially during a formative years (when it is much easier and quicker to learn new things) we don't focus on art in the same way we do maths or english. As a result people grow up with low levels of skill and talent and as such the "naturally talented" appear to have something the rest of us don't.

3) Many people seem to show a skill in art that might not be linked to teaching, however art is, in itself, a sum of key skills. Those skills can be gained in other ways.
Composition, style and structure are all areas very under-taught even more than technical skill yet one can learn them through simple observation of large volumes of artistic material.

4) Theories (especially of composition) are often looked down upon by the un-educated in art because they see them as somehow trying to restrict artwork. They see them as taking away a freedom that we feel art should have.



I also notice a pattern with a LOT of naturally talented people. They were nearly all people who were trained and taught or self learned within (or within a close discipline) from a young age. Everyone knows Mozart was playing instruments from a young age, but we also know that he had a father who pushed for him to be trained. That he spent a huge amount of his formative years learning and being trained in music.
As such by 18 or 20 these people have already got over a decade of experience ahead of those who decide to focus on new skills later in life. This coupled with the easier and quicker learning appears to give them a god-like status.


Now I'm also going to say that some people do absorb certain kinds of information differently and that sometimes the difference can be how a person learns or is taught. I will also say that some have better capacity to store/recall information; however much of that can also be through skills that they've learned (sometimes without realising it).





So I say that there is no natural talent. There are very talented and experienced people in the world for certain. I will also say that sometimes there are skills which we find hard to learn; or which require a certain kind of learning for us to absorb the information.
However I also thing that most people can achieve most things. Most won't be able nor given the chance or have the focus to learn "All" things but each person has it in them to do nearly anything others can.

If I were to say I would say that natural talent does not exist; what does is choice. Choice through part nature and part nurture (upbringing) which guides how and what a person learns and to what depth.


Finally there is taste. I know some outstanding photographers who are unknown to the masses; similarly we all know of the Tate Modern where childish artwork passes hands for tens of thousands to millions of pounds. Then there is impression, some works in ancient artwork are childish in quality but are highly important as they challenged old established rules and regulations present at that time in artwork. Or its early use of a certain kind of method or materials etc...
So style and taste and quality can be a highly complicated area. And of course then there's marketing and business; many times we can see people of modest to average skill making money whilst those of higher talent fail to do so.


Writing is the same as any other area. With the right learning, with the right focus anyone can progress. Some will find it easier and some might need different ways to learn but each person has the potential. Now ontop of that if you want to be "good" in publishing you've got to get a second set of skills in marketing, promotion, market study etc... Heck we all know that if a major film or book is released many publishers and readers often then focus on many stories similar to the main theme of that successful title.
 
In and out of the garbage pail
Put I my creation,
Be it lively, be it stale, Sadness or elation.

Joy and sorrow as I had
Will be re-inspected;
Feeling sane and being mad,
Taken or rejected.

Junk and chaos, come to halt!
‘Stead of wild confusion,
Form a meaningful gestalt
At my life’s conclusion.

-- Fritz Perls
In and Out the Garbage Pail
 
I'm not sure about the whole "innate talent" thing. That implies that somebody may grow up in a vacuum and still display certain aptitutdes for creative output. As far as I'm concerned, you might be able to convince me that talent equates to a certain configuration of the brain that allows for certain behavioural aptitudes, but I'm far more inclined to believe that people are a result of their environment and their application.

Take their environment: with respect to writers, that encompasses everything from the books we read as children, to how much we pushed ourselves at school, the friends we hung around and the stuff we read and exchanged and talked about, the culture we absorb, to the techniques we learn and the voice we adopt through our dealing with our own life experiences. All these ingredients go into creating the unique voice of the author. Some of this is technical (learning about voicing, or grammar etc), and some of this is personal (conveyance of emotions, types of experiences). Much of it will come from chewing the fat on sites like this.

But talent? It's too wishy-washy a phrase to mean anything. If I had to put my finger on it, I'd simply say it's what you're good at. But that's a world and a half away from anything "innate" you're born with.
 
With so much variety of taste you can argue that almost anyone can be a great writer, as long as they write something to your particular taste.

I should point out, I do not equate talent with success.

Is J. K. Rowling a "great writer"?

psik
 
Without a doubt, I would say there are those who have an innate talent - a flair that is hard to replicate by simple technical learning. I've worked in the creative industry of performing arts for the past 25 years. I have taught dedicated and focused students who have put 100% into their craft. But that mercurial quality of talent (or genius if you prefer) has been rare amongst them. How do you quantify it, though? It's difficult because my answer would be 'you just know'.

Even if you do not particularly enjoy the writer's style or whatnot, you still know if you are reading the work of a master. I can't abide Thomas Hardy but I've particularly enjoyed reading E M Forster and Michael McDowell, Stephen King and Michael Crichton; they pale in comparison to the skill and je ne sais quoi that Ray Bradbury displays.

That being said, I think there is definitely a place for both the grafters and the geniuses in the published arena; it's a wide arena that is not limited to elitist unless you chase that particular market.

To further muddy the waters, I would say that there is also another characteristic that can come into play and suggest innate talent, and that is style. For example Raymond Chandler is all about the style rather than the enlightened quality of his prose.

But overall, it's putting the cart before the horse; I write because I have to get the story out, and because it forms a sort of communion with the thought-form, manifesting it into real life. I don't write because I want to be a literary genius. I think I have talent in some areas of my writing and lack of talent in others. We don't deal the cards, we just play the hand we're given to a certain extent.

pH
 
I thank you all for the thoughtful input. I feared this would be a topic with the potential to enflame the emotions of some people. And from these wildly varying responses, I can see that it certainly has.


Whether I agree with a response or not, I thank you all for participating.


But I find I failed to make certain aspects of this thread sufficiently clear. Perhaps I assumed too much. For that, I will take full responsibility.


The first thing I noticed was that some of you must believe that when I used the term, “great writer”, you thought I meant such writers are great in all genres. If that’s the impression I gave you, then this is the first mistake I made. I assumed you would all make the logical jump to what I actually meant, which was a reference to greatness in a particular genre. I doubt anyone is a great writer in all areas.


Second, it’s obvious that some of you associate “great writing” with financial success or the status of being on a “bestseller” list. However, I intended no such association. Great writing can be created in complete isolation. Financial reward and social kudos are not a requisite.


I also want to make the point that I don’t believe a writer can only be great if everyone thinks so. I would have to be a moron to suggest such a thing. (However, simply because I didn’t suggest that concept, it doesn’t mean I’m not a moron. That status is well within the realm of possibility.)

Many of you have addressed the issue of determined hard work and commitment…including passion. In this, I also assumed you took it for granted that I already feel all these issues are merely the basis for great writing. Without these and other necessary aspects and details that abound in the literary field, greatness cannot be achieved. They are the foundation on which greatness can be built.


However, as it is with all artist endeavors, writing included, some people have a gift, and some don’t. That doesn’t mean we can’t improve -- we certainly can -- but to what level?


Perhaps, in my reference suggesting “innate or natural talent”, I also should have included the term “natural capacity”. And I say this because many of us were not gifted with a set of vocal cords that would allow us be opera stars, nor, do all of us have the ability to see an object in a three-dimensional form and the ability to then recreate that image as a copy of something else, or from an original image in our mind.


As I mentioned in my original thread, I’ve seen people spend their entire adult lives trying to do just this, and never reaching a level I would call impressive or even adequate. And it’s not because they didn’t study or feel passionate about their work. They simply didn’t have the “capacity”, or “capability”, if you prefer. This is not meant as a put-down or condemnation of the person. It is simply the acceptance of fact.


If a person does something in an artistic field, including writing, and does so as a hobby, as therapy, or simply as a way to pass the time, then they should never be held to someone else’s standards. But if that same person wishes to be measured against others in their area of interest, then it seems strange that they are unwilling to accept that certain standards must be met. And it’s not unusual to accept that some people will have a natural gift for that particular skill-set. It’s only reasonable. But what do I know?


And thank you, Theresa Edgerton. I think your suggestion of the word “aptitude” is a fantastic idea.


In regard to those of you who suggested that I shouldn’t limit my personal writing goals, I agree. I aim as high as I can. But I like to be realistic in those goals. Otherwise, I feel I’m dooming myself to unhappiness due to eventual failure.


And secondly, I have a fear of unmanaged personal ego. When I was a child, egotistical behavior was grounds for punishment. So, perhaps I tend to lean in the opposite direction a bit too much.


Now…back to the points of my original thread.


I would love to sing as well as Josh Groban or Andrea Bocelli. But I know my vocal limitations, so I must be satisfied with what I ‘can’ do. I can sing for my own pleasure, I can sing for the pleasure of my family and friends. But no matter how hard I work, no matter how passionate I am about studying and practicing the art of singing, I will never reach Groban’s or Bocelli’s level of greatness.


And here is a very important point. That doesn’t mean I should give up singing or stop pushing myself to improve. It is merely my need to accept life as it is. Not everyone is capable of reaching the same levels of achievement. I don’t feel I am a failure because I can’t do something as well as someone else.


It is a simple fact of life.


My dad always told me, “There will always be someone who can do a better job than you can. But if you want to sleep at night, do the best ‘you’ can, whether you’re digging a ditch, sweeping a parking lot, or building a chicken house. If you do that, you can always be proud.”


Someone mentioned that people never say “now there goes a natural born electrician”, and I agree. I’ve been a licensed contractor for forty years, and I’ve wired my share of houses. But anyone who wishes to learn that skill can do so if they’re willing to learn the rules of electrical application. However, that is a field of exact and precise knowledge. Gain that particular knowledge and you’re in business.


The same can’t be said of art, in any form, and that includes the art and craft of writing. There’s nothing exact or precise about it. It’s often free-form expression, controlled primarily by artistic intent. It’s true there are certain guidelines and rules, but few of them are set in concrete.


I’ve also noticed that some people are simply unfamiliar with what the terms “innate talent” or “aptitude” really mean. However, that’s easily corrected by doing a bit of research.


All I can say is that I’ve spent a lifetime participating in various fields of art, writing included. And if I learned anything, it’s that “natural talent”, or “aptitude”, or “a natural born gift”, are real aspects of any artistic endeavor. I’ve seen it proven out too many times. But if anyone can show me empirical proof -- not personal opinion -- that I’m wrong, I will happily look at their evidence and adjust my thinking.


I’m sure I will have more to say on this issue down the road. But for now, this will have to do.


As always, my best to you all,


-- The hermit in the woods --
 
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Is it possible to become a great writer without the massive effort? I'm going to try it, for a change, and..*
 
I think there is a little bit of conflation here (And I have but skimmed the thread except for a few posts so bear with me if I'm repeating but it's late and I need to get up early"!)

There is more than one way to be a good writer (or artist, or sculptor or actor). For the sake of this post I'll stick to writing

There are those who write masterful prose
There are those have a witty turn of phrase
Those who have a unique way of showing you the world
Those who can conjure a story you just HAVE to know what happens next
Those who have a great command of character, who see into people

These are all "great" writers, but in different ways (ofc the best will combine all these aspects to some degree, but most will have some aspects they are better at)

But that being said, I think there is some...not necessarily talent as such, but maybe inclination? Sometimes by interest, sometimes just by what we're good at, so we enjoy it more so we do it more....

If you took two people with identical upbringings it wouldn't surprise me at all if one was great at fixing computers and the other was a fantastic molecular biologist. Perhaps because of what they are interested in, perhaps because they happened to be good at X, so did it more (See Dickie and Richard Attenborough frex)

So yeah, I think we all have our natural talents (and things we are rubbish at), but I also think that what we are interested in and playing to our strengths matters as much, as does persistence and the willingness to learn.
 
I can live with this::
All I can say is that I’ve spent a lifetime participating in various fields of art, writing included. And if I learned anything, it’s that “natural talent”, or “aptitude”, or “a natural born gift”, are real aspects of any artistic endeavor. I’ve seen it proven out too many times. But if anyone can show me empirical proof -- not personal opinion -- that I’m wrong, I will happily look at their evidence and adjust my thinking.

-- The hermit in the woods --

::As long as you're not saying that women can't be engineers because they don't have the aptitude for it. I used to know an engineer who continued to say that to his dying day.
 
I'm certain inborn traits are a real thing. I have non-identical twins, a boy and a girl, and they have dramatically different temperaments and aptitudes. And yes, I recognize that some of that is environmental. But the small - very small - differences in their early childhood environments do not account for the degree of difference they demonstrated even as toddlers. By the time they were in school at five, their teacher commented that they were the two most different children in her class of 20.

As for talent, I can see that in my children as well. My eight year old son, in addition to an aptitude for math and reading in the top 1 percentile, has a freakish memory for music. If he hears a song once or twice, he can repeat it back, note for note, the exact lyrics in the exact tempo and key he heard it. If anyone else sings or hums the song, and gets a note or beat wrong, he gets irritated and corrects the mistake. He's always right.

Of course environment and hard work play a role. And if you really want to reach the top in any competitive environment, you need both. In my estimate, the most essential element to success - and by that I mean reaching the top of a competitive field with thousands or millions of others striving to the reach the top - is ambition. Ambition is what makes people apply themselves to any public endeavour. It spurs them to overcome obstacles and never waver from a single-minded focus on success. I'd put my money on someone who is the top 10 per cent in talent and the top 1 per cent in ambition over someone who is in the top 1 per cent in talent and the top 10 per cent in ambition.

I wouldn't separate them, and this illustrates a problem with the original question, to me. What does "writing talent" actually mean? Which part of the many, many activities that go into completing a book does it relate to? The ability to see, in a flash of instinct, which words might go together to create a unique metaphor? The ability to juggle tens of characters in a plot that reaches a satisfying conclusion? An insight into body language that isn't really part of writing but could be used to enhance it? I think people can be innately talented in all of those things, but unless they're innately talented in many of them, it might not be a huge advantage.

I think there is a little bit of conflation here (And I have but skimmed the thread except for a few posts so bear with me if I'm repeating but it's late and I need to get up early"!)

There is more than one way to be a good writer (or artist, or sculptor or actor). For the sake of this post I'll stick to writing

There are those who write masterful prose
There are those have a witty turn of phrase
Those who have a unique way of showing you the world
Those who can conjure a story you just HAVE to know what happens next
Those who have a great command of character, who see into people

These are all "great" writers, but in different ways (ofc the best will combine all these aspects to some degree, but most will have some aspects they are better at).

I think Kissmequick nicely captured the different aspects of writing that people can be innately talented at. Some of it is about poetic use of language - cadence, sound, rhythm. Some is about insight into human nature, or an instinctive eye for the telling detail. A knack for storytelling. A command of the fundamental structure of language. Some of these qualities can be learned more easily than others. Some are either innate, or acquired very early in life. Great writers probably have innate talent in more than one aspect of writing, and are willing to work assiduously to improve the others.
 
You're never going to be a great writer if you don't make the effort.

I struck lucky with what are really my first ever scripts and came to the notice of the BBC. (I'd tinkered a bit before) They were in the top 10% It now means I can pitch a comedy script to a producer rather than going through the writersroom. When I got to the Pacific Quay at Glasgow I was in a room with twenty other people who had spent years trying to get where I did in an hour but I have seriously felt my inexperience and I have had to play a lot of catch up to get to the stage where I don't feel like the village idiot -- and to a point I still do. Characters I could do. Worldbuilding/Setting I coud do. Dialogue I could do. I seriously struggled with comedy and plot.

Whereas these days although I'm not published there is a certain amount of confidence with my novel writing and I feel able to give advice.

The area I don't have any natural talent is poetry. I joined a writers group which contains some of Scotland's best poets (more than one is traditionally published and others get their poems published on a regular basis). Very slowly they've got me and now I can write an OK/passable poem, and they're improving. And thanks to my experience with the poems I've had two highly respected poets thumb up my rhythm and language in my stories.

I'm not sure it's talent I think it's a drive and desire to succeed.
 

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