Genetics or molecular biology advice for fiction writing - post any questions here

Ed Ryder

Ed Ryder

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Hi everyone,

If it's not too presumptuous, if anyone's writing anything involving genetics / molecular biology and wants some advice or technical questions answered let me know below and I'll try my best to answer them (and admit when I have no idea!).
If it helps I can get together a list of Q&As I think might be useful to anyone.

Cheers
Ed
 
Ooohh I am sure I'll have some when I get down to the nitty gritty of the main evil in my story...probably more to do with outside influences on genetics/human experimentation, though, which depending on how you look at things might be a little worrying if you're a really big expert on it!
 
Welcome to Chrons, Ed.

Your arrival is timely and your offer very generous. Thank you.

I'm at the point where I need to know a little more about genetics. (I might need to know about molecular biology too, if, I knew what that is!) I have a character who's developing a human/animal hybrid. His intention is to produce a large, strong and ferocious humanoid, in order to wipe out the human race.

Specifically, I want something like this:

Though man-shaped, its nakedness revealed it as not human: its features blurred, its torso and limbs showing a different underlying skeletal and muscular structure. Yet it walked upright like a man. Its mouth opened to reveal long, dark-stained fangs. The viewing angle changed to show its feet with its long curved claws and its similarly armoured stubby fingers.

Time is no object, the genetics meddler has an abnormally long life span. He's done this before and eventually produced a hybrid capable of breeding. This time, sterility doesn't matter. He is cloning. I'm assuming its DNA is mostly human, but I need something in the mix capable of poisoning (by bites and claw wounds) those of its victims who aren't killed outright. Humanity is fighting back and studying the enemy with a view to finding a virus that will kill them, but is safe for humans.

My questions so far, which may not be your field. (I'm not a scientist.):
1. How far is possible to clone original DNA, and can clones be cloned without losing the desired features
2. Might such a creature be wholly a carnivore?
3. What life span might it have? I'd like 20-30 years, is this realistic?
4. Should my scientists be seeking weaknesses in the non-human DNA, rather than viruses?
5. What haven't I thought of?

I'd be grateful for any help. I don't intend to include the background in the story, so you needn't go into too much detail. Please ask for clarification/further information if needed.
 
1. Often in genetics you have a cell line that you work from, like a master copy. You wouldn't usually copy from a copy from a copy, though sometimes this would be done.

2. If your basis is human DNA, you would have to go out of your way to deliberately make something entirely carnivorous. It's unlikely that this would happen by accident. It would also be an enormous amount of work, probably requiring you to tinker with a lot of genes, but handwavium could be applied.

3. Most mutations either have no effect or shorten lifespan. Basically, this is entirely up to you.

4. Viruses is fine. Under natural conditions viruses rarely eliminate a species because then they have killed all of their hosts, but with an engineered virus theoretically you could cause it to be lethal to all hosts, though if it kills too fast it won't spread. Feasibly, your monsters would be more sensitive to some chemical agents than humans and vice versa due to differences in metabolism and DNA.

5. Why is your bad guy doing this? Genetics research is a long, expensive and complicated process. Even useful research can struggle to get funding and can struggle to get results. If he wants to destroy humanity, there are much simpler ways for a bad guy to do it; engineered viruses and bacteria and such that are much easier and cheaper to work with, and also much easier to work with discreetly.

I'm probably on a watch list now. Oops.
 
Locrian said:
1. Often in genetics you have a cell line that you work from, like a master copy. You wouldn't usually copy from a copy from a copy, though sometimes this would be done.

2. If your basis is human DNA, you would have to go out of your way to deliberately make something entirely carnivorous. It's unlikely that this would happen by accident. It would also be an enormous amount of work, probably requiring you to tinker with a lot of genes, but handwavium could be applied.

3. Most mutations either have no effect or shorten lifespan. Basically, this is entirely up to you.

4. Viruses is fine. Under natural conditions viruses rarely eliminate a species because then they have killed all of their hosts, but with an engineered virus theoretically you could cause it to be lethal to all hosts, though if it kills too fast it won't spread. Feasibly, your monsters would be more sensitive to some chemical agents than humans and vice versa due to differences in metabolism and DNA.

5. Why is your bad guy doing this? Genetics research is a long, expensive and complicated process. Even useful research can struggle to get funding and can struggle to get results. If he wants to destroy humanity, there are much simpler ways for a bad guy to do it; engineered viruses and bacteria and such that are much easier and cheaper to work with, and also much easier to work with discreetly.

I'm probably on a watch list now. Oops.
Click to expand...

Wow, two experts! Thanks, Locrian.

1. Would my meddler be able to reuse the master copy indefinitely to create thousands/millions of clones?
2. I'm not keen on handwavium, but I can't see the clones eating fruit and veg. On the other hand, the meddler is using magic as well as science so I suppose anything can work. I'd like it be as realistic as possible though.
5. Genetics was his background, a long, long time ago, so there's an element of proving he can do it this way. Also, he's a loner, with no available lab assistance from anyone with the specialist knowledge. All his helpers have a habit of dying once he no longer needs them.
 
Slightly OT, Ed.

Given the past record of the 'secret services' (of all major powers) do you think it likely that genetic modification of humans has been taking place, regardless of the prevailing laws?
 
Ed Ryder said:
Hi everyone,

If it's not too presumptuous, if anyone's writing anything involving genetics / molecular biology and wants some advice or technical questions answered let me know below and I'll try my best to answer them (and admit when I have no idea!).
If it helps I can get together a list of Q&As I think might be useful to anyone.

Cheers
Ed
Click to expand...

Wow! Thanks! That's useful information.

That brings to mind, I wonder if some moderators might consider creating a resource list where people can volunteer a list of their fields of expertise?
 
mosaix said:
Slightly OT, Ed.

Given the past record of the 'secret services' (of all major powers) do you think it likely that genetic modification of humans has been taking place, regardless of the prevailing laws?
Click to expand...

Hi Mosaix,
I don't think so; there's so much that we don't know about how everything works together yet that making enhanced humans (if that's what you mean) is a long way off yet. Several parties have claimed to have cloned humans but these have never been substantiated or verified. But hey who knows! I'm sure however that there will be private clinics in the future offering to screen for various things or modify traits for people willing to pay.

China have done some gene editing experiments on human embryos (although these were not viable anyway), and the UK has just given permission for the first gene editing experiment on donated embryos but banning any subsequent implantation. Really not sure what I think about that though - it feels like a line in the sand too far to me.
The big ethics battleground will be on inherited diseases where we know the mutation and could possibly fix it, but the possible unintended consequences (e.g. you fix one thing but break something else) could have huge ramifications.
 
prizzley said:
Wow, two experts! Thanks, Locrian.

1. Would my meddler be able to reuse the master copy indefinitely to create thousands/millions of clones?
2. I'm not keen on handwavium, but I can't see the clones eating fruit and veg. On the other hand, the meddler is using magic as well as science so I suppose anything can work. I'd like it be as realistic as possible though.
5. Genetics was his background, a long, long time ago, so there's an element of proving he can do it this way. Also, he's a loner, with no available lab assistance from anyone with the specialist knowledge. All his helpers have a habit of dying once he no longer needs them.
Click to expand...

I see Locrian's already beaten me to it, but here's my 50p's worth:
1. How far is possible to clone original DNA, and can clones be cloned without losing the desired features
If you're talking about stem cells you can, but each round of manipulation and subsequent tissue culture causes random mutations (could be a plot point though if the scientist in question accidentally creates something he didn't intend) - it's a bit like photocopying a photocopy.
1.1
Depending how much starting material you had, you could make quite a lot :)

2. Might such a creature be wholly a carnivore?
Humans are omnivores and so you'd need to change quite a few things in our makeup to get all the things we need just from meat. In the lab they could be fed slops or out in the wild be seen raiding the bins or something?

3. What life span might it have? I'd like 20-30 years, is this realistic?
It can be as long as you want it to I'd imagine.

4. Should my scientists be seeking weaknesses in the non-human DNA, rather than viruses?
As Locrian says an, engineered virus would do it but it would have to distinguish between human and modified humans. Big guns would also work, so you'd need a reason why the armed forces won't just go in and kill them all.

5. What haven't I thought of?
How he is paying for it, and what is his ultimate goal?
 
Ed Ryder: I dispute that humans can't live entirely on meat. Even vitamin C is in fresh meat (even more so in offal) in usable amounts - after all, animals need the stuff in their metabolism too, and most of them make it themselves so the level in tissues is higher than in humans. That isn't just theoretical either. Eskimos (or whatever the PC term for that ethnic group is this week) living traditionally live almost entirely on seal meat and blubber, and a large part of the Masai traditional diet consists of the milk and blood of cattle - IIRC.
 
Hello Ed and thank you for being so generous with your time and knowledge.

Lots of great fiction fodder ideas in this New Scientist article. (Paywall to complete version.)

How giant viruses could rewrite the story of life on Earth

Any thoughts on:

a) 'Giant viruses' as possible remnants of now extinct life domains?

b) Cell nucleus as a "giant virus that never left" haha.

Kind Regards
 
Mirannan said:
Ed Ryder: I dispute that humans can't live entirely on meat. Even vitamin C is in fresh meat (even more so in offal) in usable amounts - after all, animals need the stuff in their metabolism too, and most of them make it themselves so the level in tissues is higher than in humans. That isn't just theoretical either. Eskimos (or whatever the PC term for that ethnic group is this week) living traditionally live almost entirely on seal meat and blubber, and a large part of the Masai traditional diet consists of the milk and blood of cattle - IIRC.
Click to expand...

Happy to be corrected - it will make Prizzley's story point easier anyway!
 
One more thing: Some vitamin deficiencies in humans are really a deficiency in our metabolism. The most glaring example is vitamin C, which is only a vitamin for humans at all (also for a few other species such as the "great apes", guinea pigs and a couple of obscure tropical birds) because of a point mutation which deactivates one enzyme in the vitamin C biosynthesis pathway. It's thought that said mutation persisted because a human ancestor didn't need to make the stuff - because of very high fruit intake.

Given that, one might think that if one is going to muck around with the human genome repairing that defect would be one of the first things to do.

Incidentally, if incorporating genes from other species (cats perhaps) it would be a good idea to avoid introducing more errors and vulnerabilities. Two examples are the fact that cats need taurine from external sources, and that dogs are highly sensitive to caffeine and theobromine. Which is why one needs to buy highly expensive special chocolate to give to one's dog. :)
 
Mirannan said:
Eskimos (or whatever the PC term for that ethnic group is this week) living traditionally live almost entirely on seal meat and blubber,
Click to expand...
Though genetically they have a higher tolerance to fat. Just as tolerance to lactose in Adults is by ethnic group.

@Ed Ryder
Food:
Apart from fat, protein, carbohydrate (sugars) I understand that we need various vitamins, amino acids and trace elements. Guinea pigs like us need vitamin C. Most other things don't. I read you might get ill and die if you only ate rabbit (Allegedly North American natives knew this and had a name for the situation where other food was scarce)/

So hypothetically:
1) Aliens; just like reptiles, herbivores, marsupials, carnivores likely would need different vitamins, amino acids and trace elements to us. Or can eat plants poisonous to us (certainly there are plants poisonous to all species, most species or only a few, i.e. dogs can't eat cocoa)?
2) On an alien world / alien space ship, the food might be harmless, poisonous, partly digestible, wholly digestible but might lack all or some vitamins and amino acids (likely some would be OK for trace elements)?
 
Presumably the issue isn't all about meat vs vegan, or cooked vegetarian vs raw only but that the more specialised and narrow your diet is the more expert you need to be about what you eat. Some or many people can live entirely on raw vegan or only cooked meat?
I was reading that reasons that "processed" foods are more fattening is that:
  • More mashed / crushed food provides more "calories".
  • Cooked food more calories than raw.
  • Some foods like rice or pasta vary in calories dramatically according to processing.
But I don't really know. Lots of contradictory stuff seems to be in media. Like Corn oil, Sunflower oil and sunflower marge was supposed to be good, but now they say Olive oil, Rape seed oil, butter and animal fats are "better" and sunflower oil might be really bad!

It's very confusing.
 
cyprus7 said:
Hello Ed and thank you for being so generous with your time and knowledge.

Lots of great fiction fodder ideas in this New Scientist article. (Paywall to complete version.)


Any thoughts on:

a) 'Giant viruses' as possible remnants of now extinct life domains?

b) Cell nucleus as a "giant virus that never left" haha.

Kind Regards
Click to expand...

Apparently our institute doesn't have access to New Scientist so I'm having to guess what was in it, sorry!

One of the most fascinating things about the origins of life is the inherent mystery of which came first and how it all came together to work at all. There was probably all kinds of weird and wonderful things at the start and we're still discovering oddities to this day. There's been a few experiments over the years to try and create the primordial Earth and the complex chemicals needed for life and there's also Hoyle's comet seeding hypothesis, but I don't know what they managed to discover.
There's also Craig 'I own your genome' Venter's experiments to create a synthetic life form with a minimal set of genes that can survive and replicate which also could give clues on how very early life came about and flourished.

As for giant viruses, organelles like mitochondria and chloroplasts have often been postulated as being foreign bodies in origin who entered cells and never left, their genes eventually mostly transferred to the cell nucleus with only a few remaining in the organelles themselves. The cell nucleus had to come from somewhere so who knows! Again it's the question of did the giant virus start small and accumulate bits over time, or did it start with a bigger complement of genes and lose them over time?

I don't think I'm allowed to post links yet, but there're good wikipedia page on mimivirus and the minimal genome if you just search for that.
 
 
Last edited:
Ray McCarthy said:
now they say Olive oil, Rape seed oil, butter and animal fats are "better" and sunflower oil might be really bad!
Click to expand...
Just to confuse you more, I also heard that frying with Olive Oil is bad; that it is only beneficial if you have it raw, and you should cook with other oils. Without knowing the science behind the reason (and these "health" experts probably have no idea themselves) and don't know if that is actually true. However, these oils are different lengths od carbon chains, and our body will break them down into different products. Just as Ethanol is okay and other alcohols are not.
 
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