How important is a good understanding of English

I consider it very important to master grammar, even if you later choose to apply some more flexible rules for your actual writing. Just imagine a first reader in an agent's or publisher's office. One grammatical error anyone can make, but four of five on the first page declares that the work is going to require extended editing, which costs money, so that is already a strike against it in

I had the disadvantage of having an English teacher as a father, but fortunately (for society no less than myself) I turned out to have a mathmatico-technical bent, and people of 'that class' are expected to be illiterate and incomprehensible (I can do the 'incomprehensible', really)

But, particularly in conversational dialogue, in real life few people express themselves grammatically - indeed, if you record them and transcribe word for word it's amazing any communication passes at all, let alone complex principles. On average their arguments are less organised than a politician's manifesto (and a whole lot less than his/her accounts book). So you have to write what people ought to have said, not what they actually say anyway, so why not make it grammatical?

Because it feels artificial, that's why. Oh, one character can respecyt subjunctives and use 'whom' when it's the object of a sentence, nutcases like that do exist - something I can certify, as I am one myself - but a society majoritarily like this would be very prim and proper sounding, and the working class are bound to simplify except when they mock their betters. So knowing the grammar rules is as important as knowing the geography and geneology of your environment - sticking rigidly to them is as limiting as explaining your magic system to your readers.
 
My one-line advice would be: practice, and get people to read your stuff and correct you.

You mentioned betas: perfect! Jo mentioned critiques: also perfect, but it would take a lot of them for you to spot patterns and catch your ingrained errors. Feedback from someone reading your draft would be the most efficient.

Perhaps do lots of reading, observing how other authors work, where they achieve what you would, but by different means. Then learn to get an itch when you see something in your writing that's unique to you. Then look it up. When you know how it's done, practice using it. I bet that next time you do a complete read of your draft, it'll have 'red pen' all over it ;)

The Judge said:
...I have characters who know about subjunctives and gerunds, at least enough to know when they should be used. As a result, I can easily distinguish their dialogue from that of characters who wouldn't know a gerund if it bit them on the behind...
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I identify with this. My current story has a person who speaks with perfect English, in convoluted constructions, and no contractions. It grates a little, but it's intentional because of his (shall we say) background. Nobody else in the story speaks like that, so it doesn't read like an author's error.
 
If you want to be a writer, read Fowlers top to bottom, its very interesting. Just read it instead of a space opera okay? ) Dialogue is a separate issue, you can use all the mistakes you want in dialogue, just like the people in movies do. )
 
Alex Darion said:
English is my native language and, as such, I have a poor understanding of its construction. I know when I learnt French, we were taught about the basics of sentence construction and the various components thereof but I can't remember that in English (maybe I was too young? Not sure).
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I've researched a lot about how babies learn a first language, is there such a thing as a true bi-lingual, how easy is it to learn a second language and at what age, etc. Our brains are born like a sponge ready to soak up what's in the environment. We all start out with the capability to understand and produce every type of human sound and grammar imaginable. Very, very quickly our brains go through a process of saving what's useful and discarding what's not. In Japan you don't need to be able to hear or say the letters R and L, so that gets tossed. By the time kids are 2 or 3 years old, they are making sentences in their mother tongue. By the time they are 11 or 12, the brain's neurons have solidified and after that age it is very difficult to naturally absorb a second language. Unless you grew up in a household with a nanny or a grandma speaking a second language, it's fairly impossible to soak up a second language in the same way as a first. (Sorry Mr. Berlitz!)

That means, when learning a second language through books and audio tapes and tutors, it's a different mental process. Not to say that one can't study really hard and become quite proficient at a second language, but it will never be embedded in the brain like the first. My husband from Japan has studied English since he was in grade school, and he has lived here in the USA (married to me) for 30+ years. His grasp of the language is quite good but there's often a moment where he'll say the wrong thing. I cannot tell you how many times we've debated minor things, such as, why are blue jeans a plural word when it is a single garment?
 
Keeping in mind that the question in the title of this thread says "a good grasp of English" rather than "a perfect understanding of grammar," or "knowing a whole dictionary's worth of words," or anything that extreme, I think the issue may be a little like "How important is it for carpenters to be able to use a hammer without frequently smashing their thumbs?" Or "How important is it for an opera singer to be able to carry a tune?"

Language is the tool we use, the instrument (like the singer's voice) we have chosen. A certain knowledge and facility is necessary or we're going to be metaphorically mashing our thumbs when we try to write with clarity to communicate our thoughts, hitting wrong notes when we want to bring our characters and worlds to life.
 
Teresa Edgerton said:
Keeping in mind that the question in the title of this thread says "a good grasp of English" rather than "a perfect understanding of grammar," or "knowing a whole dictionary's worth of words," or anything that extreme, I think the issue may be a little like "How important is it for carpenters to be able to use a hammer without frequently smashing their thumbs?" Or "How important is it for an opera singer to be able to carry a tune?"

Language is the tool we use, the instrument (like the singer's voice) we have chosen. A certain knowledge and facility is necessary or we're going to be metaphorically mashing our thumbs when we try to write with clarity to communicate our thoughts, hitting wrong notes when we want to bring our characters and worlds to life.
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Very well said!
 
Alex Darion said:
English is my native language and, as such, I have a poor understanding of its construction. I know when I learnt French, we were taught about the basics of sentence construction and the various components thereof but I can't remember that in English (maybe I was too young? Not sure).

A couple of recent threads have highlighted my woeful lack of knowledge about the various aspects of verbs/tenses/etc and their use in sentence construction and the affect that sentences have on the reader. It made me wonder how essential it is to know these things to be a good fiction writer. Is it imperative that we know how to form the perfect sentence or is it enough to 'just know it's wrong/right'? Surely we need to know the basics so we can identify what is/isn't working in a sentence and need the tools to fix it if required?

There's mixed opinions on whether having formal education on these matters is useful or not, I'd be interested in what others have to say on this. I read some posts on threads and it's like they've been written in a foreign language! I try to read up on things I don't know but even a basic tuition can be over my head!
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I'm not picking on you here but will point out that having opened your thread with a sentence in which you told us that you learnt rather than learned speaks to your readers.

I hated English (the taught subject, not the language) in school. I have never been one to be able to hold a strong discussion about adverbs, nouns, pronouns, adjectives, participles, verbs, etc. It literally bores me to tears.

Now that is not to say that I do not understand the language. I love English and in fact languages themselves fascinate me. I speak only 5 languages currently, and while I can read in all five, I am not well written in two of the three in which I can also write.

I am learning a sixth language slowly as well. But as far as writing goes, I may not be able to diagram a sentence or get the structure correctly identified, however I still know what the rules are. I understand some basics of punctuation, and the grammar and structure needed to compose a sentence.

I have been praised repetitively for my writing skills and style and this is not an "I'm so great" discussion. Rather it's to make the point that if you have a feel for writing, and can practice the basics, are willing to improve, and open to criticism (and I have had plenty of times where much more talented writers and kindly English teachers and professors have taken pity on me and have helped or attempted to help me) then strictly speaking it is not absolutely imperative that you know every detail of the craft.

I think that the fact that you are here and asking the questions is more important than not yet knowing all the answers. Its an opportunity for growth.

I would say that there are plenty of programs that will help you with sentence structure, spelling, tense, passive or active voice, grammar, etc in the editing and correction phase of your writing.

Microsoft Word for example.

Having a good vocabulary helps a lot. One of my friends suggests reading a few pages of the dictionary every day as a vocabulary builder.

Best wishes to you with your writing. Cheers!
 
Just one thing to say: I've known a few people who write with perfect grammar, and couldn't tell you the names/titles of virtually anything grammatical.
It's like they have a natural talent; or perhaps they had absorbed the rules in school, despite not paying any attention?
 
ErikB said:
I'm not picking on you here but will point out that having opened your thread with a sentence in which you told us that you learnt rather than learned speaks to your readers.
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I was a bit confused by your comment here, so can I just ask what you mean? I gather "learnt" isn't commonly in use in the US, but it's perfectly fine in British English, or am I missing your point, that this is what speaks to us, ie that Alex is a Brit?
 
The Judge said:
I was a bit confused by your comment here, so can I just ask what you mean? I gather "learnt" isn't commonly in use in the US, but it's perfectly fine in British English, or am I missing your point, that this is what speaks to us, ie that Alex is a Brit?
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I stand corrected then. I was not aware that learnt was an accepted spelling in the UK. Ah the things I have learnt/learned on this site continue to fill me with wonder and fascination.

And I am not being sarcastic. Thank you for pointing this out to me. I was entirely unaware of it. Cheers!
 
There are words I, an Amurican, often spell with a 'u', that seem to bother the heck out of my spellchecker!

I think I got in the habit of using the u's because of my early reading favorites: Christie and Doyle, chiefly. And in an important application-test a few decades ago, I missed exactly one spelling question: realise.

Perhaps I should move to England??
 
ErikB said:
I stand corrected then. I was not aware that learnt was an accepted spelling in the UK. Ah the things I have learnt/learned on this site continue to fill me with wonder and fascination.
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Ah, yes. I can understand it might look a bit strange if you're not used to it. There are a number of verbs which can take also a -t in the past tense in British English -- eg burnt, dreamt, as well as Ursa's spelt -- but I'm not sure how many of them have crossed the Atlantic, so you might have a few more puzzles coming your way!
 
Jo Zebedee said:
I can't name many of the grammar rules I use
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For years, I relied on the names used for Latin grammar that could (sort of, in some cases) apply to English. Unfortunately (or not), I'd been taught only basic Latin in lessons. And having only learnt about the most basic aspects of Latin grammar (and not very well), I was like you: ignorant** of the terms for many aspects of English grammar.

Not knowing the names is not, in itself, important, not if one's use of grammar is fine. And one does not even need to know the names when asking a question about grammar, not if one provides an example of the problem one is facing (usually identified when one discovers that some text, "...doesn't feel/sound right.") But it can help when trying to understand some of the answers one receives....


** - Finally, I bought a book about English Grammar, the Oxford Everyday Grammar, which I referenced when posting about English tenses in The Toolbox. (The edition I own was written by John Seely.)
 
Cathbad said:
There are words I, an Amurican, often spell with a 'u', that seem to bother the heck out of my spellchecker!

I think I got in the habit of using the u's because of my early reading favorites: Christie and Doyle, chiefly. And in an important application-test a few decades ago, I missed exactly one spelling question: realise.

Perhaps I should move to England??
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Would that be favourites then @Cathbad? :) (sorry - I'll see myself out...)
 
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