For American fantasy readers: ale vs beer

[River Boy]

Beer, ale, lager or bitter, even though it's 8:30 on a Monday morning all I know is I want one.

 

[Cathbad]

Beer, ale, lager or bitter, even though it's 8:30 on a Monday morning all I know is I want one.

Hmmm... I haven't had a beer in 18 years! (No, not a reformed alchy, just never was much of a drinker.)

 

[River Boy]

You obviously haven't lived my life.
I drink much less than I feel like drinking but on occasion the amber liquid still wins me over.

 

[E.Maree]

Haha, I think my characters and I are going to stick with spirits. We'll be over here with the vodka and the whisky

 

[Jo Zebedee]

I'd suggest you use the word which most accurately describes what is being drunk.** If you're picked up by a publisher then an American editor will go through and suggest alternatives if it's an issue. If you're self-publishing, then you can discuss it with your editor at that point, because there will undoubtedly be a whole host of other words and expressions which might need to be changed if you feel you need to Americanise your language to appeal to a US readership.

This, this and this again. You're spending time on something you don't even know will be a useful process. Until you know, 100 percent, you're going to self publish and that the US market is going to take to it. Even if you do - this is what a copy editor is for (in this case, a US copy editor, I assume). You can't, possibly, know every term for an American. You can't, possibly, know which ones will pull them up and which won't.

You don't know that an agent won't look at this and know exactly the right UK publisher to sub it to. (In which case, they'll lead on that one.)

And, as I said on the other thread, none of this is any barrier, whatsoever, to any agent anywhere. Really. Stop worrying about it. You can't make your mss sound American - you don't speak with their accent. It's up to the pros to address that, not you. I really fear you'll end up with your voice lost, some terms changed that didn't need changed, others not changed because you didn't know they needed to be and an unholy mess at the end. And weeks spent on it.

I'll be quiet now.

 

[River Boy]

Yes, I agree with Jo Zebedee, you can overthink the whole US & UK thing. I've ghostwritten for US publishers and can't recall any significant edits - all I really change is the obvious: taxis become cabs, mobiles become cell phones, and if you take off your pants in the US that's OK because you're still wearing underwear.

 

[Brian G Turner]

I'm not worrying about it, Jo - I'm simply curious and using chrons for research.

Originally I'd researched all about ale and applied that term. A few months ago I decided I wanted my secondary fantasy to appear more continental than British, so I changed "ale" to "beer".

The modern difference between the two is that ale does not normally have hops added as a preservative. However, the terms were often interchangeable (standardisation is an utterly modern idea) - and before the Norman invasion, the English drank "beer". So I thought "beer" would be the better historical term.

However, it nagged me that "ale" might create a better sense of period, hence why I wanted to ask the question for our American members, who likely have a mix of both English and continental Europe influences. I'm still not sure if I have any direct replies, but I've changed everything back to "ale" anyway, and made edits where required to note the distinction.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

It probably is the least important thing

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

This is the kind of brief world building detail you can use to your advantage: to add to the not-our-world feeling, characterize a locale, and/or show that a character has travelled into unfamiliar regions, if they notice some odd, unexpected ingredient used to flavor the beer.

That way, no one on either side of the Atlantic is going to be thinking of their personal favorite brand.

 

[E.Maree]

I actually had fun with alcohol and worldbuilding in my latest WIP. It's a modern science fantasy with supernatural creatures about, and various monster-friendly pubs offer specialised drinks for their clientele. Bloodbeers with blood infused in the bitterness, whisky using seawater, dried seaweed on a bowl on the bar counter next to the salted nuts.

It's actually one of my favourite pieces of worldbuilding. I can't do justice to it in a forum post, because I'm using a lot of in-depth Scottish mythology, but it was a lot of fun to weave in each creatures cultural tastes and food exports with a modern alcohol industry.

 

[Brian G Turner]

I actually had fun with alcohol and worldbuilding in my latest WIP

The research isn't bad, either - I had to sample all sorts of mediaeval alcoholic drinks. Just for the experience.

 

[Kylara]

As a picky picky person with access to lots of local breweries I do know the difference between ales and beers (and their fun specifics). My OH and a bunch of our friends even brew their own from time to time.

Ale and beer are very different drinks. I don't mind either way in my novels, but sometimes the descriptions jarring wish the term they have chosen.

And Guinness is a stout there would also have been a fair few porters about and those are generally very lovely. Wheat beers tend to be continental.

I enjoyed the class 1 story. I enjoy my time in Sweden and the variety they have available.

I shall regale another amusing story. Many years ago the Reading University rugby club travelled to America for a mini tournament. They were, as most uni rugby clubs still are, excellent and frequent drinkers of high % beers. They got invited to a party at the American University shortly after arriving. The "beer" on offer was sadly substandard to their normal tastes but being polite brits and never ones to shy away from a party they imbibed heavily. Unfortunately for them, their regular drinking of 7% and higher beers in the UK caused an unfortunate side effect. They couldn't actually drink enough of the US "beer" to get drunk properly. So the obvious answer war to just drink more and drink it faster, right? This also failed, but brought it to the attention of the US party goers who thought it was amazing. It turned into quite an hilarious episode of some US rugby players trying to keep up, drink for drink, with the Reading team. Most of them dropped, completely intoxicated and the poor Reading team were still struggling to get drunk at all. The next morning they were bright eyed and bushy tailed, hangover free and the poor Americans couldn't believe it. The team got carted round about a dozen parties during their trip and shown off a bit as impressive drinkers. They were mighty pleased when they returned back to the UK and promptly got horrificly drunk very quickly after being lulled into a false sense of beer superiority, and all got slammed with impressive hangovers.
Best part is one of the players said that the US beer was 'basically slightly gross old water, hydrating more than intoxicating'. He claims at American student tried to punch him at that point but fell over when he missed.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

I had to sample all sorts of mediaeval alcoholic drinks. Just for the experience.

I claimed that's why I made Mead, Metheglin and sloe wine (not sloe gin which is modern) circa 1986. I rate Metheglin nicer than Mead, which is a bit cloying. There seem to be differences of opinion about what herbs & spices go in.
Cider (really a form of Apple Wine) is quite old and in more northern / North Western places rather than wine.

 

[NbDawn]

I don't think it matters. No one who reads a fantasy should expect things to be technically correct. For example, think about the fantasy novels that talk about these great palaces and such made of glass or other fantastical elements. These magnificent feats in architecture contrast greatly to their use of weaponry. If they can create a vast palace of glass, why can't they create WMDs? So my point is whether they drink beer, ale, or some other fancy liquor, it doesn't matter. It's fantasy. Do whatever the heck you want!

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Metheglin and sloe wine (not sloe gin which is modern) circa 1986. I rate Metheglin nicer than Mead, which is a bit cloying. There seem to be differences of opinion about what herbs & spices go in.

Mead isn't always sweet. I've had mead that was quite dry. Metheglin doesn't not refer to a drink with specific ingredients. It applies to any spiced or herbed mead. My son has tried several different combinations over the years, and some are very good.

Cider and perry (a pear cider) were both very common. In my youth, the characters in historical novels set in the middle ages were always tippling perry, but I don't believe I've ever seen it in a fantasy novel.

So my point is whether they drink beer, ale, or some other fancy liquor, it doesn't matter. It's fantasy. Do whatever the heck you want!

But I think Brian's point in starting this thread was that what he wanted was something that would add a true medieval flavor (pardon the unintentional pun) to his story.

If you want your setting to reflect a certain period, then you have to balance the occasional fantastic element with details true to that period. The more such details, the more immersive the experience could be for readers.

 

[SilentRoamer]

Brian - You can't go wrong with a good Lentrian Red.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

Mead isn't always sweet. I've had mead that was quite dry. Metheglin doesn't not refer to a drink with specific ingredients. It applies to any spiced or herbed mead.

I'd totally agree with both those statements. It's more difficult to ferment further to reduce sweetness with any fermentation, if the alcohol content is higher?, i.e. more "sugars" to start with. Perhaps some yeasts are more or less alcohol tolerant?

Cider and perry (a pear cider) were both very common. In my youth, the characters in historical novels set in the middle ages were always tippling perry, but I don't believe I've ever seen it in a fantasy novel.

Yes, this gets back to Brian's question. Often people expect certain stereotypes and tropes in a Mediaeval styled fantasy novel rather than accuracy. The Historical Romance (even as Late setting as Regency era, all those Hanoverian Georges, such as Georgette Heyer draws on ...) is really expected to have more accuracy than any Mediaeval styled fantasy. The more it has magic, non-human sentients etc, the less people care about accuracy.

So if it's not a real time and place, then it's a matter if Ale or Beer "feels" right?

 

[Martin Gill]

A few months ago I decided I wanted my secondary fantasy to appear more continental than British, so I changed "ale" to "beer".

I think this is the key point personally. I doubt 99% of readers will know the technical difference - I don't and I'll happily drink either! But Ale is closer as a word to the Anglo Saxon/Old Norse root while Beer feels more continental European. Its fantasy - let the setting steer the word. I've been writing stuff based in a pseudo Scotland recently so I've given them all mead, whiskey and heather ale.