Ursula K. LeGuin, Logic, Gender

[Mirannan]

I don't buy that. Most men who are teachers teach at the secondary level. (I'm guessing it's because it pays more and holds more prestige, but I really don't know.) If that was a position of such great peril why would they prefer it to teaching younger children?





I find your phrasing here particularly interesting, with the innocence (or guilt) of the accused coming as an afterthought, and your vicious characterization of the possible victim right up front.

Would it have been different if I'd written "false accusation" instead of "accusation"?

This is, at least to some extent, an example of another problem. If a man is accused by a woman of sexual assault or rape, his name is made public immediately no matter how far-fetched the accusation is. However, it is very rare for the accuser to be named even in the most obvious cases of malicious false accusation.

 

[galanx]

Both my parents were teachers, my wife was a teacher, all Secondary. In N.I. and Ireland the majority of primary teachers are women and majority of secondary teachers are men. I don't know why. Secondary does pay more than primary I think, but that can't be the explanation?

I wonder why one kind of people who dominate one type of job are paid more than the different knd of people in the lower type of job when the people making the decision as to who gets paid what are in the first category?

I mean, I wonder why black people got paid less money than white people in the American South; I wonder why Catholics in Ulster got paid less, if hired at all than Protestants? Couldn't be that Protestants were doing the hiring assigning the jobs and pay levels, could it?

 

[galanx]

To: Tupac Shakur, August 1993
Dear Mr.Shakur:
Hi, we're putting out an new anthology of great heavy metal rock acts of the late 80s/early1990s: Metallica, Alice in Chains, Megadeth, Slayer, and we're calling it "New Directions in Music" and we know you're a popular artist whose name would help us sell copes to the wider rock music audience, so we'd like your endorsement. Why, no, there won't be any of that crazy "rap" stuff- can you even call it music?- on it , and no black artists have been invited to participate. Why do you ask?

 

[Jo Zebedee]

Would it have been different if I'd written "false accusation" instead of "accusation"?

This is, at least to some extent, an example of another problem. If a man is accused by a woman of sexual assault or rape, his name is made public immediately no matter how far-fetched the accusation is. However, it is very rare for the accuser to be named even in the most obvious cases of malicious false accusation.

I think that has changed somewhat recently with women being tried for that. Once again, however, it is the same if a woman faces a false accusation - for instance, in your teacher example. But I do agree that there is an imbalance.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

I wonder why Catholics in Ulster got paid less, if hired at all than Protestants? Couldn't be that Protestants were doing the hiring assigning the jobs and pay levels, could it?

I can't comment on the other areas, I'm afraid. But in NI it was often to do with the type of industry each religion dominated with, yes, if you go back some years Protestants more likely to be in the higher-paid industries. (It is no longer so much the case, just to add - for instance, the civil service here (which pays well in comparision to NI-average which has one of the lowest wage rates in the UK) is now predominantly RC - and there is full parity across job roles/rates etc, although there are still areas - and towns - predominantly one religion or another.) So it wasn't anything to do with who was hiring and assigning the jobs per se so much that one religion simply didn't work in certain fields of work (and nor did the other religion in other fields.)

Quite what that's got to do with Ursula le Guin and innate sexism - or not - in sf, I'm not sure.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

I wonder why Catholics in Ulster got paid less, if hired at all than Protestants?

I think that one is mostly or entirely myth. There were a few companies that mostly hired from one community. Sometimes it was discrimination, sometimes because people known to people working were first choice and sometimes location. In industrial areas: West of the Bann, the "protestants" concentrated in Waterside of Derry and East of the Bann, Catholics mostly in West Belfast.
In a particular company doing same job, the "Catholics" and "Protestants" (detestable way to categorise N.I. People) got same pay, except very rare situations.
The border was artificially drawn to ensure a Unionist Majority, leaving out 3 counties of Ulster. Let's not however go backwards but forwards, that only benefits extremist bigots such as DUP and SF.

I wonder why black people got paid less money than white people in the American South

I wonder why despite all the claims of exporting Democracy, large parts of USA didn't have it till 1960s?

It's easy to make simplistic judgements.

assigning the jobs per se so much that one religion simply didn't work in certain fields of work

Absolutely. Also mobility (to move house) and travel distances very low. Actually physically communities are mostly MORE segregated now than before 1969. I think the big secondary school (where my "Catholic" friends went*) is closed due to increased segregation. What I said above about locations of communities and companies.
So called "Protestants" that go to UNI now tend to go to mainland UK and many don't return.
At primary school age, the so called "Catholics" may be in majority now, though that shift has slowed down.

[* Unusually I grew up with about equal numbers of friends in both so called "Communities"]

 

[J-Sun]

Sorry, that doesn't logically follow. "By that fact alone" means "of the set of facts", not "of the set of facts available to us in this source material" (which wouldn't be correct even if it did mean that, because the line about the tone extends her argument beyond the simple fact of the anthology being all-male). Other facts exist which she hasn't given (possibly because she didn't think she was providing material for a public debate), and we're not in a position to infer what they are. Both she and Radziewicz know exactly what's in the anthology -- why would she list her detailed reasons for the judgement she makes, given that he would almost certainly be able to infer them from the contents?

You're not following my meaning. Once again, when I say "by that fact alone," I'm saying "by that [given] fact alone." She is writing her reasons. I am not psychic and can not know any other reasons. I'm saying her sole given fact was that it was an all-male anthology. In other words, by failing to provide any other argument, she regards the single item she advances as sufficient. The line about the "tone" could uncharitably be seen as her characterization of any all-male anthology but I will grant that the "not only...but" does indeed "extend" her argument but doesn't introduce a separate fact. She said, "not only...but" rather than "perhaps due to" which she might have said had that been the real crux. Obviously, her letter makes it clear that the gender makeup of the ToC is sufficient. (Further, I find it hard to believe that a general anthology of hard SF that, e.g., Dozois, didn't notice as being "like a locker room" would in fact have such a tone, but that's wandering off the trail.) Your next bit frankly makes no sense to me. If both she and Radziewicz know "exactly what's in the anthology" then why would she communicate any reason at all, least of all the most obvious gender makeup of the ToC rather than a non-obvious critique of the literary quality of the material? If he could "certainly infer" her reasons for refusal, why would he have even requested a blurb from her in the first place, knowing she'd refuse? (These are all rhetorical questions.)

To: Tupac Shakur, August 1993
Dear Mr.Shakur:
Hi, we're putting out an new anthology of great heavy metal rock acts of the late 80s/early1990s: Metallica, Alice in Chains, Megadeth, Slayer, and we're calling it "New Directions in Music" and we know you're a popular artist whose name would help us sell copes to the wider rock music audience, so we'd like your endorsement. Why, no, there won't be any of that crazy "rap" stuff- can you even call it music?- on it , and no black artists have been invited to participate. Why do you ask?

Interesting metaphor, given that Mr. Shakur was not asked to endorse a metal album but a rap album and refused on the grounds that there were no male rappers and it was instead performed by a bunch of hos.

Ms. Le Guin, the science fiction author, was asked to endorse a science fiction anthology.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Ms. Le Guin, the science fiction author, was asked to endorse a science fiction anthology.

Is this the same Ms Le Guin who has spent at least 50 years championing representations of women and gender issues in SF?

 

[J-Sun]

Is this the same Ms Le Guin who has spent at least 50 years championing representations of women and gender issues in SF?

Obviously so.

I am going to guess your point is that the publisher should have known that presenting Ms. Le Guin with a single book whose contents were all-male was, in itself, an attack on feminism? Or that he should have known she would subordinate aesthetic concerns to her gender issues and reject the book out of hand?

Seems to me, such a request to such a person is a pretty good indicator of good faith on the part of the publisher that he did not see this book as a locker room attack on women.

 

[maeda]

So we discovered that Miss Le Guin is human after all? ..not a robot, and can actually over-react on topic of gender, what of it?

It's understandable given the history, i think you are giving this more significance than it deserves really

 

[Ray McCarthy]

and can actually over-react

She has a history of "reacting", usually with some mitigation, it WAS terrible what they did to her Characters in the Earthsea production.

Probably that's why I like all her books. They are written with conviction and energy and strong feelings, emotion. I wish I could write a quarter as well.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

such a request to such a person is a pretty good indicator of good faith on the part of the publisher

Or that the publisher had forgotten who she is.

 

[The Big Peat]

It seems likelier to me that that the publisher did not see an issue than he forgot who Le Guin is, but just because there is not a deliberate exclusion of women, does not mean there is not an issue. Plenty of people make mistakes in good faith.

 

[dask]

I've become leery of Ms. Leguin every since I read about Thomas M. Disch's experience with her in his The Dreams Our Stuff Is Made Of.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

I've become leery of Ms. Leguin

I'll keep buying her books, but I'd worry about inviting her to my blog. Not that she'd likely accept. I really like her books.

 

[galanx]

Obviously so.

I am going to guess your point is that the publisher should have known that presenting Ms. Le Guin with a single book whose contents were all-male was, in itself, an attack on feminism? Or that he should have known she would subordinate aesthetic concerns to her gender issues and reject the book out of hand?

Seems to me, such a request to such a person is a pretty good indicator of good faith on the part of the publisher that he did not see this book as a locker room attack on women.

Or that he saw her as simply a big name to get a blurb from and had not paid any attention to the arguments Le Guin had been presenting for the preview 20 years. "Hey, I'm not sexist- ask me and I'll tell you. What your perceptions as a woman are don't count."

 

[Ray McCarthy]

arguments Le Guin had been presenting for the preview 20 years

I think only 3 years short of FIFTY years. At least.

 

[zlogdan]

There is not even a single word on LeGuin's answer that implies, sexism or even mild misandry, her refusal was legitimate.
And regardless of genre:

How is it possible to conceive a science fiction anthology without any of her works ( even having in mind this is just the first volume )?