The Great Info Dump Debate.

[J D Foster]

To give another short example: "Sally had a lovely smile. She wore a red gingham dress and had silver-grey hair. He hadn't seen her in forty years." That's info-dumping. "Sally danced down the steps, her lovely smile lighting her face, her red gingham dress floating around her as it had forty years before when they last met, so it came as a shock to him to realise her hair was now silver-grey not blonde." That's not good writing, as it's quickly dashed off, but it gives the same detail without being nearly as info-dumpy -- because it's rooted in the narrator's experience, not written as a guide for a casting director.

That is a great example, very helpful. I'm cutting and pasting that paragraph into my, grammar, notes and tips word document to read over occasionally to remind myself.

 

[Ihe]

I've always thought about having a lil special collextion of notes about this stuff as well, a writing compendium of sorts, with all those bits of advice (for story development or tegnical things). Why doesnt Chrons get one done? There sure are lpads of people here who could and would contribute to it. Might just end up being the most complete in the world

 

[The Judge]

Something like this you mean?

 

[J D Foster]

The Judge I have replaced a line of info dumping about someone's appearance tonight in one of my current WIPs, I'm putting the learning to immediate use

I've always thought about having a lil special collextion of notes about this stuff as well, a writing compendium of sorts, with all those bits of advice (for story development or tegnical things). Why doesnt Chrons get one done? There sure are lpads of people here who could and would contribute to it. Might just end up being the most complete in the world

This is a great idea, needs to be a bit database like, organised and catogorised so you can study it. Short tips that can be expanded if required.

Something like this you mean?

I go through this one from time to time, but there is a LOT of information in one thread there.

 

[The Judge]

Glad it was of help!

And yes there's lots in The Toolbox, but it's pretty undisciplined!

 

[Ihe]

That is what I was talking about. Didn't know we had it. There is nice content there for sure. But I meant an organized/indexed guide, subjects grouped by field (grammar, big-picture plotting, character development, voice, pace, and a big etc.). The advice would be as definitive as we could make it (through voted consensus or something along those lines), and as summarized as possible, maybe linking to related material/examples to keep it as short (but as useful) as possible. I'm talking about a professional-looking quick-point guide without all the chat, questions, unneeded extra examples, conflicting information, and out-of-place addendums. What/who else can gather so many intellectual resources and passionate collaborators (for free) to get this done? If we put our mind to it, it could be the most comprehensive writing guide in the world I tell ya! Mods! Where are you? Let's get this done! We can then publish it and split the benefits 300-way.

 

[cgsmith]

If you consider an 'info dump' to be negative, then you need to build up a desire to have one. If you know what I mean. Page 1 really isn't the place for an info dump if you ask me, but in a book like Harry Potter for example, when things get going later in the series, you can read pages and pages of world building stuff because you are in love with the world at that point.

Make sure that people want the information you are dumping on them first. That's what I think.

 

[Pentagon]

One of the advantages of writing a story set in New York / London etc. is that you don't have to make a point of describing everything- and can concentrate on whatever it is you want to write about. If you are writing a romance story in New York you can concentrate on the shade of the love interests hair and perfume, because the reader knows what New York looks like. Not to mention, a romance story demands more attention to character detail, or absence of information in the case of a mysterious stranger.

The kind of people who are drawn to both writing sci fi and indeed reading it - are likely to expect details of the world, something we share with classical fantasy.

However, in my opinion- I describe my protagonist as a young woman, most people have an idea of what a young woman looks like- if she has brown hair or blonde hair it doesn't really matter. However, a city in my futuristic planet is not obvious, is everyone living in a giant dome, are they living underground. Is there an atmosphere etc.

I assume that the reader is only prepared to put up with a finite amount of info-dumping per story, therefore I'd rather use it to play to the strengths of the genre and in my opinion choose what kind of audience I'm tailoring for.

 

[Dennis E. Taylor]

Just as an aside, I've just joined audible.com and I selected The Martian as my "free book." Anyone who has read the book knows there's a lot of exposition in it. What I'm finding surprising is that exposition is much more obvious in an audio book. Not sure why...

 

[Ray McCarthy]

t exposition is much more obvious in an audio book. Not sure why...

Dialogue obviously works best in an Audio Book.
Exposition becomes the drone of a Narrator and has to be compelling or you can more easily lose concentration than with sparkling dialogue?

 

[Kylara]

I think the biggest problem is when the info you are giving is not as related to the action as desired, it creates a feeling of distance. Anytime that happens your dump/exposition needs work. It should meld seamlessly into the scene.

I always advise people to spend time writing an author only file where they describe all the stuff they need to know how a scene works. At the minute I have a new city, and I need to know how it is all laid out, how it has changed over the years (which later becomes important), and what different zones there are. I wrote this in a separate file to my story because there is no need for all of it to go in my prose. There needs to be a brief description of what the characters see from afar, an overall impression (in this case a big spiraling mess), then a closer impression when they enter the city (all in good repair, lots of people, market stalls down a side street with sounds and smells) and some bits as they move through the city (large central road, lots of people, lots of buildings all the same height) and then certain things I need to pave the way for that are important later on so in my notes: spiral city was originally for defensive purposes, but now lots more roads have been built and houses removed to cut across the spirals - shortcuts. These are poorly kept, very noticeable. in my prose: characters noticing the odd angles and narrowness of poorly kept streets. The reader doesn't need the history now. That will probably come later when they get invaded and someone moans about civilians and peace time etc, the decline of a once great martial city etc etc. If I put it all in, it would be an info dump where most of the info is unnecessary for the reader.

Exposition etc can be done very well, but you have to not notice it. I'm good at doing it with worldbuilding, but then I write more poetically than lots of people like, and my writing gets poorer if the description gets pulled out so I have more space for exposition, but I have to do it really carefully so my prose isn't overloaded. I have a big bit on trees - very important, but easily could turn into a big pointless and boring dump. You want to sprinkle your info so the reader either doesn't notice or thinks it is interesting. As TJ wrote, one is much more enjoyable and helpful than the other.

It's a bit like the bad guy on tv who tells you his entire plan - that is an info dump - it is nearly always pointless, and nearly always annoying. You know what their plan is already, or you don't want to know as that ruins the rest of the show. You want to feel intelligent, not belittled. Just because you can say it all, doesn't mean you should. That is why it's good practice to write dumpy bits out in a separate file and then work out what the reader needs to know and only put that in.

 

[Kith]

As others have pointed out, it's only bad if it pulls you out of the story. It's also easier to get away with once a reader is invested - and in particular when they actually want to know what you're telling them.

I read Kate Elliot's "Cold Magic" fairly recently, and there was one point at which the main character was walking from one location to another, and began to reminisce on the history of the world. Though you could see the author had tried to ease it in naturally, it felt clunky and forced. I actually put the book down and waited until I was ready to slog through it before I picked it back up again. Another reader may have abandoned it at that point (and if it had been earlier in the story, I might have too).

Having said that, I finished the book and enjoyed enough of it that I'll eventually read the rest of the trilogy.

On the other end of the spectrum, I'm in the middle of Pierce Brown's Red Rising trilogy; there's a lot of world building and societal structure in it that could have simply been dumped on the reader, but there's not been a point at which I've felt it. I feel like I understand the world pretty well by now, but I can't recall a stand out moment that broke me out of the story to explain something, so it must have been done smoothly. Of course, I've been too busy enjoying it to have noticed exactly how it's been achieved.

 

[Stuart Suffel]

Number of posts have addressed the issue.

One mentioned confidence. I think that's a big thing starting off - believing the reader will stay tuned with only the bare bones of a story showing.

The balance is where the craft comes in. The seamless aspect is the art.

Making the bare bones intriguing enough, but also accessible, for a reader is an art and a craft.

i suppose the best way of putting it is, Can you show everything through the eyes of the Characters - what they actually see, hear, feel, taste and smell and, if you've no other choice left, what they reminisce / remember. I'd pretty much recommend that order.

 

[Ronald T.]

Hi,

As I read through these forums, I'm left feeling that most of the feedback regarding prose between scenes of dialogue, or in fact prose of any kind is almost immediately considered info dumpy. Why is that?

You can't tell a story without telling people what is happening, and to do that you have to dump some info down their throats.

What is essential to the plot will need to be told, of course, there's a good way to do that and a bad way, but, why does it seem like there's a vast majority of people who seem to think that any sort of scene setting or actual prose "feels info dumpy"?

I've seen it again and again, and frankly if you lot that are so concerned with info dumping can show me a story where there isn't a lot of info dumping then I'm a monkey's uncle.

To me, to show instead of tell, you need to describe with all five senses, not necessarily all at once, but it helps to set the tone.

Also, you can't just write a scene as if it were a procedural report; where plot point A happened, then plot point B happened. You have to colour it in, and in any instance I've seen where people (myself included) have asked for critiques on stories that do colour it in, they're met with the same response. Info dump.

So, my question to those that are concerned with info dumps, is, what do you consider to be an info dump? Can you provide examples of stories that do and don't info dump?

I believe info dumps are absolutely necessary in certain situations. But they must be appropriate to the moment, they must give information that would take far too long to explain in an action scene, and they must be kept as short as possible. If the info dump stays focused and gives only the valuable and needed facts for the story to make sense, and the author makes certain that the information isn't so long in duration that it removes the reader from the story, I see no problem including it.

Again, the goal should always be to keep them short, focused, and appropriate to the moment. Then the author must move on with the story.

 

[RX-79G]

I believe info dumps are absolutely necessary in certain situations. But they must be appropriate to the moment, they must give information that would take far too long to explain in an action scene, and they must be kept as short as possible. If the info dump stays focused and gives only the valuable and needed facts for the story to make sense, and the author makes certain that the information isn't so long in duration that it removes the reader from the story, I see no problem including it.

Again, the goal should always be to keep them short, focused, and appropriate to the moment. Then the author must move on with the story.

Neal Stephenson can "info dump" for pages at a time in book after book. There is no rule - it just has to be written well enough that the reader enjoys it.

 

[Theophania Elliott]

Neal Stephenson can "info dump" for pages at a time in book after book. There is no rule - it just has to be written well enough that the reader enjoys it.

Yep. Apparently so. I've never read any of his stuff, but I've had him used as an excuse when beta-reading someone's novel:
"You just stopped the story to go on a four-page political rant. You might want to review that."
"Well, Neal Stephenson does it."

It cut no ice with my mother when I was ten and pointing out that my sister never had to do the washing up, so I shouldn't, either. I'm quite proud of myself for not channelling my mother, and saying, "Well, you're not Neal Stephenson/your sister."

Some authors are just that good that they can get away with breaking the rules (which are mostly only guidelines, but guidelines are there for a reason). David Weber does infodumps all the time, usually with weapons statistics - he uses it as a way to control the pace and heighten tension. Just after the missiles are launched, but before they hit, you get a page or two of technical information. I think it's meant to give the reader some of the anxiety/impatience/dread that the (fictional) crews on the (fictional) ships are feeling as they wait. If they have to wait for the missiles to hit, why shouldn't the reader? What the hell, I think it works.

 

[RX-79G]

Yep. Apparently so. I've never read any of his stuff, but I've had him used as an excuse when beta-reading someone's novel:
"You just stopped the story to go on a four-page political rant. You might want to review that."
"Well, Neal Stephenson does it."

It cut no ice with my mother when I was ten and pointing out that my sister never had to do the washing up, so I shouldn't, either. I'm quite proud of myself for not channelling my mother, and saying, "Well, you're not Neal Stephenson/your sister."

Some authors are just that good that they can get away with breaking the rules (which are mostly only guidelines, but guidelines are there for a reason). David Weber does infodumps all the time, usually with weapons statistics - he uses it as a way to control the pace and heighten tension. Just after the missiles are launched, but before they hit, you get a page or two of technical information. I think it's meant to give the reader some of the anxiety/impatience/dread that the (fictional) crews on the (fictional) ships are feeling as they wait. If they have to wait for the missiles to hit, why shouldn't the reader? What the hell, I think it works.

It isn't an "excuse". There is no excuse for bad writing. If Cixin Liu (Three Body Problem) devotes entire chapters to exposition and people love his books, then there isn't a rule that is being broken.

The real question is, "How do I go off on a tangent without losing the reader's interest?" Not surprisingly, people have trouble doing that. But they also have trouble writing good dialogue, making characters come off sympathetically and host of other problems that make writing hard. Prohibitions on info dumps is a helpful tip to newer writers because you can actually get away with avoiding them, but you can't get away with avoiding dialogue. Somehow this tip has turned into a "rule" that has never existed and a critique that isn't necessarily accurate.

 

[Ursa major]

Generally, as someone else pointed out a few years ago on this site, the rules are there to help you when your text isn't working and you don't know why... or when others (e.g. beta readers or those providing critiques) are having trouble and they want to encapsulate what is not working.

With comments like, "There's a lot of infodumping!" they may be complaining that there's a lot of extraneous information that side-tracks the narrative rather than enhancing it, or the way vital information is provided takes the reader out of the story, or both.