TV series to ruin further reading....rant.

I'm not sure what your issue is exactly. Is it about him as a writer and his 'obligations', or are you approaching it as a frustrated fan who just wants the next book? Both? If it's the former, then I can kinda understand, and sometimes I don't like the romanticising that's done with writers (writers block, the muse etc.)

HOWEVER, when someone buys your book, that's their decision. The thing about entertainment, is that's it's a market measured by objectivity (sales) but is reliant upon subjectivity (people).

The issue I find with your argument, is that you're applying the rules you might to someone like a doctor/teacher, who has an obligation to perform to a certain degree because it's part of the agreement they've made. There's a reason you need qualifications for those jobs. As an author, you can write whatever you want, and there is no hard-set skills beyond basic grammar required. Clearly, you don't need to write a super thought-provoking story in order to be successful, you don't need talent either. Unlike a teacher/doctor who have to follow a certain curriculum/rules and are expected to be up to a certain standard based on the regulations we have in place. You cannot classify yourself as a Doctor if you're not qualified as such. But if a writer doesn't release a book when expected, there's nothing wrong with that, because there's never been any regulations/rules to suggest it's an issue (unless stated otherwise in a contract). It might be frustrating, but the writer never agreed to such a thing, even if they made promises themselves, there's no rules to enforce punishments on them for not fulfilling it, so there's no issue.

An author has a contract, but that's not between them and the reader, it's with their publisher. The publisher can make demand so long as it fits the terms agreed to, but there's no such agreement with the audience, besides the imaginary one readers conjure up in their heads.

Now OTOH, if you're complaining as a fan, then I'd say the same thing as before. Whenever I hear this talk about 'books taking long', I just wonder why people don't just read other books and get over it, or better yet, make their own if they're up to it. I get the initial annoyance, but it's been a while now. The same thing with Patrick Rothfuss, I know it's taking ages, but people seriously devote hours of their life if not longer to complaining about something so trivial, whilst they could be spending the time reading someone else and find something perhaps even better than the series they're waiting on.

A bit of both really. Is it the be all and end of everything, absolutely not. Waiting on Martin led me to Erikson, who managed to complete an equally complex series in 10 years. That is what I mean by delivering for a reader.

Martin may also be doing himself a diservice by how long it is taking him to put out each installment. The story has suffered and has arguably gone downhill since A Storm of Swords.

Call me entitled or whatever, but there is also an element of entitlement even arrogance in an author stringing their fans along indeterminately. Will I be losing any sleep? No, I will watch the TV show and decide if I want to invest in the books afterwards.

My 2c worth is that it is down to pure laziness that he cannot get it done. That and possibly because he has lost the run of himself with the story and is struggling to pull it together.
 
GRRM has 28 POV characters through ASoIaF...

But from a writer's POV, I can only attest to the fact that writing multiple protagonists is seriously difficult, and the volume of characters that GRRM has to grapple with must be an uneviable headache.

I agree that the scope of the series has made it monstrously difficult to complete. However, Martin chose to introduce 28 POV characters. It was a bad choice (or sequence of choices), but he made it anyway. And he made the choice to massively ramp up the complexity knowing that he didn't have a plan for what to do with all the new characters and plot lines because he does not outline.

So it's ultimately a matter of indiscipline. Martin lost control over his own work and doesn't have the energy or skill to kick it back into shape. And I would say such an extreme lack of discipline is unprofessional.
 
I don't think anything is ruined, at least not for me. Obviously things will be ruined if Martin is not able to finish the books before the TV show ends as we will know the basic end of the story at that point, but as of right now, I think things will happen differently in the show than in the books and it's really impossible to know if what we are seeing on TV will actually transpire on the written page.

As an example, I think that Jon Snow will come back in a very different way than he did on the TV show.

Unfortunately, for people who want to remain "unspoiled" it would be virtually impossible to do that even if you didn't watch the show. Again, you can use Jon Snow's resurrection as an example. Even if you weren't watching the show you would pretty much have to avoid the internet, twitter, Facebook, and probably all your friends and coworkers in order to remain ignorant of what happened.

I'm actually finding it very exciting that I don't know what's going to happen, because I never felt that sense of tension when the TV show had not yet caught up with the books. As powerful as the Red Wedding was I still knew it was coming. As shocking as Ned Stark's execution was, I still knew it was coming. Things are happening now that are coming as a surprise to me and that's hitting somebody enjoyment of the show.
 
Unfortunately, for people who want to remain "unspoiled" it would be virtually impossible to do that even if you didn't watch the show. Again, you can use Jon Snow's resurrection as an example. Even if you weren't watching the show you would pretty much have to avoid the internet, twitter, Facebook, and probably all your friends and coworkers in order to remain ignorant of what happened.

Bit of a tangent, but this really grinds my gears. When readers knew what was coming in the TV show, we were careful not to spoil it for fans of the TV show. But once twists are revealed in the show, they're an open topic. The fans of the show don't even try to show courtesy to people who haven't caught up. It's a really obnoxious double-standard.
 
Bit of a tangent, but this really grinds my gears. When readers knew what was coming in the TV show, we were careful not to spoil it for fans of the TV show. But once twists are revealed in the show, they're an open topic. The fans of the show don't even try to show courtesy to people who haven't caught up. It's a really obnoxious double-standard.
You make a great point. It actually always amazed me how good book readers were about not spoiling the show for non-readers. Now that the shoe was on the other foot people who are watching the show have absolutely no regard for people that are trying to avoid show spoilers until the book comes out.
 
I doubt Martin will complete the book series before the end of the TV show.

The fourth and fifth books were published in 2005 and 2011. We still await the sixth book, and there is due to be a seventh book, which we will not see before 2020.

The TV show is currently on Series 6. There will probably be another two series, which takes us to 2018 if HBO maintain their current pace.
 
As the show is very good and done a good job editing down a lot of bulk from the books, I don't care. I've been reading them since 2000, so I'm just happy to see the story progress. And Martin doesn't owe anyone anything.
 
His books are officially redundant, but the concern now is, based on reactions to the show and how it is revealing things the books havent got round to yet, will his original vision be compromised? Will he change a moment if fans hate it, or copy a moment the show changes from the books if fans love it? I think at this stage, the book series is just a curio for rabid martin fans...like myself.
 
His books are officially redundant, but the concern now is, based on reactions to the show and how it is revealing things the books havent got round to yet, will his original vision be compromised? Will he change a moment if fans hate it, or copy a moment the show changes from the books if fans love it? I think at this stage, the book series is just a curio for rabid martin fans...like myself.

There really isn't a vision to compromise. Aside from a vague notion of the final outcome, Martin has been making up the story as he goes along.
 
His books are officially redundant, but the concern now is, based on reactions to the show and how it is revealing things the books havent got round to yet, will his original vision be compromised? Will he change a moment if fans hate it, or copy a moment the show changes from the books if fans love it? I think at this stage, the book series is just a curio for rabid martin fans...like myself.

When the show began we had the age old situation of the TV series\movie imitating the book whereas now we have the reverse. Which is a pity for Martin as his work will now be judged fairly or unfairly to the show.

There really isn't a vision to compromise. Aside from a vague notion of the final outcome, Martin has been making up the story as he goes along.

I agree.
 
I don't think anything is ruined, at least not for me. Obviously things will be ruined if Martin is not able to finish the books before the TV show ends as we will know the basic end of the story at that point, but as of right now, I think things will happen differently in the show than in the books and it's really impossible to know if what we are seeing on TV will actually transpire on the written page.

As an example, I think that Jon Snow will come back in a very different way than he did on the TV show.

Unfortunately, for people who want to remain "unspoiled" it would be virtually impossible to do that even if you didn't watch the show. Again, you can use Jon Snow's resurrection as an example. Even if you weren't watching the show you would pretty much have to avoid the internet, twitter, Facebook, and probably all your friends and coworkers in order to remain ignorant of what happened.

I'm actually finding it very exciting that I don't know what's going to happen, because I never felt that sense of tension when the TV show had not yet caught up with the books. As powerful as the Red Wedding was I still knew it was coming. As shocking as Ned Stark's execution was, I still knew it was coming. Things are happening now that are coming as a surprise to me and that's hitting somebody enjoyment of the show.

Like I said though, it might be (will be) done differently in the books, but the main point is we know he's alive. We know GRRM gave them a broadish synopsis of how it all plays out, so we know he's alive. That's a spoiler. And it's GRRM's fault. I don't really blame him, it's the most popular show on earth so it was obviously a wise decision to sell the rights and it has been done pretty well.

But do I think readers, where before they didn't, now have a justification in being slightly irked? Yes. And I think he Martin feels it too, his last post definitely had an air of regret about it which he didn't (quite rightly) have when simply addressing people demanding the books quicker just because they want them NOW.

I'm an old hand at waiting for books. Scott Lynch, Rothfuss, Wheel of Time...I can deal with it and I don't complain as I have no right to and it wouldn't occur to me to. But if someone said "here, Doors of Stone isn't out for another six months but we're releasing a basic wiki summary. You can wait for the book if you want but it's gonna be plastered all over the place and everyone will be talking about it," I'd be peeved and it's the same basic premise.
 
i'm not too sure about the whole "book readers are non-spoiling angels whilst TV show watchers just want to ruin it for everyone" angle mentioned above. i think the TV show gets a lot more discussion and if you go into one of those discussions about episodes or anything about this season then yes, you will get twists discussed at length. and as these discussions are more prominent on various media , there is a bigger risk of coming upon spoilers for the yet to be published books. but then, if you haven't watched all of the TV series seasons and read a discussion about the books you'll get spoilers as well.

i read the books after watching the series, but i was well behind on the TV series and only once was I aware of any upcoming events before they happened (that was the Red Wedding and it was the fault of a full page review in the Metro newspaper in London). i just made sure not to read or watch discussions about the series.
 
You make a great point. It actually always amazed me how good book readers were about not spoiling the show for non-readers. Now that the shoe was on the other foot people who are watching the show have absolutely no regard for people that are trying to avoid show spoilers until the book comes out.

Absolutely correct. More than one person came to discuss it with me despite me making it very clear I was waiting for books. They are lucky I have grown indifferent to it.

---------------------------------------------

For past few years, I have grown immune to spoilers. Even if they happen, it doesn't decrease the quality of the reading experience because it is something entirely different for me. Books and TV show were always separate entities for me. Books engage my imagination, the TV show just entertained me. Besides, I no longer find the TV show compelling so I have grown completely indifferent to anything related to it. The spoilers will not impact the level of disappointment or satisfaction I might eventually get from books simply because they don't engage my imagination. After all, reading is more than just knowing what will happen. How, why, when, etc. are all just as important.

Martin will either finish the books or he won't. Life goes on either way. I'll just be disappointed if he doesn't, but I don't think he owes me anything.

P.S. I think that the show diverged from the books so much that the endings will no longer play out in the same way even should they end similarly. There were simply too many changes made and from what I hear of this new season, there are even more changes than before. The characters are even more different from the book ones (if they even exist!) than they were so there is no plausibility of there being a too similar of an ending. At the very least, it will be changed by the virtue of things that lead up to it being different as it will have a different meaning as such.
 
i'm not too sure about the whole "book readers are non-spoiling angels whilst TV show watchers just want to ruin it for everyone" angle mentioned above.
Yeah, because it's simply not true. The book is constantly said to not be the same as the show, even if there are similar aspects. But when the books were out before the show, it was different. People spoiling the show were actually spoiling things, because the show was an adaptation of the books, whereas the book might be vastly different from the show. Unless you've read Winds of Winter, there's no way you'd know for certain if anything is 'spoilt'. False equivalence, it's not the same at all. There was so much talk about book readers ruining the show. They done it all the time on all corners of the net. You could be reading comments for something completely unrelated and then someone would just comment: "X dies" and if you know the show, you know the character, and its ruined for you.
 
Last night I watched the latest episode of GOT and learned why Hodor is called Hodor. I won't spoil it for anyone who hasn't seen the episode but my point is that this is another example of the series spoiling what I expected to learn in the books. And don't go telling me it'll be different in the books, it won't be the case here, it's simply spoiled what I hoped to learn whilst reading.
 
Last night I watched the latest episode of GOT and learned why Hodor is called Hodor. I won't spoil it for anyone who hasn't seen the episode but my point is that this is another example of the series spoiling what I expected to learn in the books. And don't go telling me it'll be different in the books, it won't be the case here, it's simply spoiled what I hoped to learn whilst reading.
All due respect. You're making a conscious decision to watch the show. If you were to avoid the show you'd still, in all likelihood, run into spoilers, but you wouldn't have the level of detail you have attained by actually watching.

I treat the show and the books as cousins rather than identical twins. Certain things in the books will be spoiled, but GRRM will still be painting masterpieces with words, and I'll enjoy the books when they come out.
 
I'm slightly confused as to how the TV show's not meant to put in stuff that people might have expected to learn from the books.
 
Now cames another conundrum. With the quality of the current season, the books face an uphill battle to raise their bar. ADWD was slightly off the pace to put it mildly. As I mentioned in an earlier post the books are now in the unenviable position of being judged against the TV series.
 
All due respect. You're making a conscious decision to watch the show. If you were to avoid the show you'd still, in all likelihood, run into spoilers, but you wouldn't have the level of detail you have attained by actually watching.

I treat the show and the books as cousins rather than identical twins. Certain things in the books will be spoiled, but GRRM will still be painting masterpieces with words, and I'll enjoy the books when they come out.

Fair point, I agree I am making the decision to watch the show, I just would have liked to have read about Hodor before seeing what happened to him on screen. If I hadn't watched the show then I more than likely would have heard about Hodor in my place of work or circle of friends which would have been very disappointing for me to learn that way.

In praise I have to say the scene was filmed fantastically well. From another perspective, if a question I've pondered for years had to be answered on screen rather than in print then I'm pleased that it was done so dramatically and yet emotionally.
 

Similar threads


Back
Top