Iron Man now a black girl

[Ray McCarthy]

So Margaret Thatcher misunderstood the Russians, it wasn't a complement but a suggestion? The comma was omitted.

 

[TheDustyZebra]

I just assume that all my non-white, non-male, non-British characters are human,

That seems pretty limiting.

 

[abrucestewart]

Can't see him putting a kid in one.

Oh, I can, definitely . And, to be fair, sounds like she's not your run of the mill kid.

ABS

 

[Overread]

Marvel and DC (which honestly if you don't get too into the comics are basically the same thing - ergo American super heroes - heck they've enough cross-over events that casual research can be quite confusing at times) both tend to treat their characters in the same way. They are not characters.

Each super hero is a concept; a construct of a series of events and mutations/powers that results in a type of personality and character forming.

This is a very tricky concept for most people to follow because what happens is most people encounter as superhero or team of them within a certain niche. For example my experience of X-Men is the 90s cartoon. To me that is X-Men. However preceding that and following that are multiple alternate tellings of that same concept; those same conceptual characters which are not bound to gender, race, colour, ethnicity, age - nor even a point in time. You can take a character like Batman and you can place him in nearly any setting - so long as there's a dark, gritty world; so long as there's a "Gotham" type city; with a bat theme for Batman; so long as there is a Joker (actually he doesn't even need Joker - Joker has simply arisen as his most popular adversary). etc..... As long as all the parts in place we have ourselves a Batman.


Thing is because we each enter at a different point and because not everyone gets into it enough to go back to the previous (either because they don't wish to - can't afford to or don't even know its there) it catches us by surprise when they make changes. Of course sometimes its just a "reboot" (like we got with all those Spiderman films); however other times they try to advance their own story; but in doing so they simply take that same concept and make a few tweaks to result in a new model.



I think the thing is DC and Marvel have got such a huge legacy of doing this that certain characters have become, for them, impossible to drop. The downside is that with a large case of impossible to drop characters they also run out of room to introduce new ones with the same market impact; and large company has to look at its profits and investments. Why invest in a new character with a new background which is uncertain if they will become popular. Why not simply blend that newish concept into a previous character; because heck they've done it many many times before and will do it many times yet. And if it fails its not worry to them; one character jsut endures a small period of reduced sales followed by a reboot to the original concept which will likely spark increased sales from returned popularity and nostalgia.

 

[maeda]

If Thor is a women then that's a strange name, same as iron man for a girl, maybe Thorea and Iron Girl?
But anyway, i don't have anything clever to say because my exposure to marvel is when i take kids to the movies
What i would like to see is how she will fit all that hair into the helmet, maybe it's a magical helmet

 

[Allen Teasdale]

I actually kind of like the idea of bringing more diversity to the popular characters. The picture bugs me though. The woman has the midriff baring outfit with the hair & makeup done; Stark is just standing there in a suit. One of them is being objectified and unfortunately, it's the 15 year minor female...

 

[abrucestewart]

@Overread I agree with all your thoughts, and I really don't know enough comics history, but are there not also fundamental elements to longstanding characters which can make some ideas too great a change to be, at least, easily accepted?
e.g. Iron man is a rich industrialist, indiana jones is an older archaeologist, thor is a male Norse god, lara croft is an english heiress, modesty blaise is a female spy, etc. If you change too much of who the character is, you fundamentally change the character.
I am not advocating a male centric world that should never change, but I'd rather see new / diverse characters developed and given the same marketing push. What happened to Black Widow's (?) movies, for example?
But if i may paraphrase you, it's a risk averse corporate world. One which won't change without encouragement.

ABS

 

[Overread]

ABS yes indeed which I think is why changing several key elements in Iron Man is causing all this free publicit.....er..contention and debate about the point. It's a big shift all in one go and is almost playing the card that the only thing for Iron Man is the suit.

But yes it comes back to risk, but also investment. They don't need to invest huge amounts into advertising for something like Iron Man to sell well in most forms. However if they were introduce "Iron Gal" they might feel a need to really invest huge amounts into marketing her because the community wouldn't self-market itself. There wouldn't be the auto-fanbase in the same way as there is for Iron Man. So there is that to consider too, from their perspective. It's cheaper to change what they've got than it is to invest into something new that requires a whole support structure behind it.

Sometimes many of these projects sink WAY more into marketing than into the product itself; thus choices being made are often more a marketing and market choice than anything to do with the actual product production (and this is likely a part of the case here as the cost to make any Ironman series is likely pretty similar)

 

[J Riff]

I won't watch it or read it either way, unless it appears for free somewhere...but hey- whatever happened to the Metal Men comicz? They had a gal or two in the group. The possibilities are limitless; Tin Lad, Manganese Mom, Beryllium Bro... oh nevermind)*

 

[Old_Man_Steve2016]

Tony stark put a colonel in an iron man suit. And he put Pepper Potts in an iron man suit. Can't see him putting a kid in one.

I haven't been following the series much lately, except on blogs and movie mags. Yahoo news sometimes brings up Marvel Comics activities.
If I understand the situation correctly, he may not have had a lot of choice in the matter, since Rhodes is dead (Killed by Thanos).
The girl taking on the suit has appeared in the comics before- she was hired for her repair skills a few years back.

Others wearing Iron Man armor has come up in the past so it's not like this is Marvel's first rodeo with Stark taking a break from the suit.
Is it enough to make me want to buy a copy? Eh...probably not, though I do like diversified comics in general. I wanted to wait out the Secret Wars/Civil Wars/recon event before I buy/'obtain' anything from Marvel.
I might buy it for my 10-year-old niece. Wonder if Marvel still does mail-order...

 

[Coast]

I might buy it for my 10-year-old niece. Wonder if Marvel still does mail-order...

Surely the electronic version for a future 'Iron Maiden' fan?

 

[logan_run]

how about she does not become a superhero. stark adopts a black girl that's 15/ lets make rick jones Bucky again and say Bucky never really came back from the dead and it was a imposter, mileso brian can be another super hero then spider man and be spider man side kick. give siff a book and not have a female throb.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Marvel and DC both have a problem with treating their comics as soft porn for young boys - something that seems to get surprisingly little comment. Male heroes get armour and capes, female heroes get bathing costumes and lingerie.

Which especially becomes a problem when the character you're portraying is supposed to be just 15 years old:
Marvel Pulls J. Scott Campbell's Riri Williams Iron Man Cover

DC, of course, showed they were little better - just before Wonder Woman bizarrely became a UN Ambassador for Women's Rights, DC announced a spin-off series in which Wonder Woman's friends fight crime in panties:

http://io9.gizmodo.com/new-dc-comic-is-basically-jason-and-the-argonauts-but-w-1787723046

Maybe Marvel and DC should make a better effort addressing the basics of equality, before trying to push on more complex issues of diversity?

 

[thaddeus6th]

Brian, must admit, the biggest problem I have with that drawing is that the hand's far too small. Even with just a natural rather than exaggerated foreshortening effect, it's too damned small.

And yeah, does look a bit like Jailbait Girl.

 

[Tower75]

Ironman: now a black female
Nick Fury: now a black male
Flash's girlfriend in the TV series: now a black female
Spiderman: now (or is/was/multiverse shenanigans) a black male
Spiderman: (additional) now a white female
Thor: now a white female
= diversity

Blade: suggest changing to a white male
Blackpanther: suggest changing to a blond 22yo, white female
Wonderwoman: suggest changing to a male named Stephen who still wears the same outfit
= racist/misogynistic

Flash forward 20 years: all characters are now black and/or female. Diversity achieved, seems legit.

Part of me feels this is mainly America's issue. As a nation they still have a massive issue with "race". This reminds me of the Academy Awards boycot due to the lack of Black nominations that happened a few years ago. Interesting, I wonder how much diversity there is in the BET?*

*Sorry, I'm a white male so I have no say in this. Apologies.

 

[Lafayette]

Bugger, my avatar will be outdated!



I agree Toby. Brian Michael Bendis is the current Iron Man writer, a white male with adopted daughters of African and African/American heritage. He has spoken repeatedly about his desire to provide positive role models for his daughters.

I do also think that it is a strategic (financial) move for Marvel. They have the problem of the character being strongly linked to an actor (Downey Jnr) to the point where its hard to imagine Iron Man being portrayed by anyone else. Having Tony Stark retire and pass the mantle to someone completely new makes sense, and renews the character for a couple more movies down the track.

Can I think of a good reason why that new character shouldn't be a 15 year old black girl? Nope.

I can: experience. I can't believe anyone as smart and experience as Tony Stark would hand over a billion dollar suit to a girl just four years out of puberty. I also believe it's a very mean thing for Tony to put a poor little girl in extreme danger. By the way, where are the parents of this fifteen year old? Where is the Child Protection Agency.

 

[Coast]

I can: experience. I can't believe anyone as smart and experience as Tony Stark would hand over a billion dollar suit to a girl just four years out of puberty.

Even with the recent events in the Marvel comic universe? I thought it was well within keeping with Stark's personality.

I mean, people are reading the comic before they judge, aren't they?

If the story was that he picked a kid off the street and made them Iron Man - I'd agree that it makes little sense.

Perhaps I should have said-
Having followed the Bendis run on Iron Man, and seeing how they've introduced the new character... Can I think of a good reason why that new character shouldn't be a 15 year old black girl? Nope.

 

[J Riff]

And the Ancient One, in Dr. Strange comics... is now a younger gal as well.

 

[Lafayette]

I would like to apologize for speaking before reading. However on the surface it doesn't sound good.

I have a number of thoughts and ideas pertaining to this subject directly or indirectly some of which may be indefensible and/or contradictory. But I need to share or burst.

The first time I read of this occurrence was in the sixties or early seventies in Adventure Comics featuring the Legion of Super Heroes. One of my favorite heroes was Karate Kid. When Curt Swan (one my favorite artists) first drew him he had blue eyes, brown curly hair, and was white. A few years later another artist came along, I think it was Mike Grill (not one of my favorites) and it was said he wanted to honor Bruce Lee (not a bad idea) and made the Karate Kid look oriental. As far as I can remember there was no other reason given. I lost interest in the character. I can't say why I just did.

Years later I think I have a reason why this idea turns me off. It is a form of rape. I know too well that the white race is far from perfect and have a huge amount of sins at their feet. But being white is part of who I am. I believe that Blacks and Jews who we know have had centuries of persecutions and discrimination would also feel that they're being raped if someone took away their ethnicity.

For the record I believe we all should have a certain amount of pride of what we are. As humans we are not all good but we are not all bad either.

Also for the record I'm not against Brian Michael Bendis wanting to provide positive role models for his daughters, but he should invent new ones not trash the old ones. He and the other comic creators are taking the cheap, easy, and sensationalistic way of doing their jobs.

Mr. Bendis needs to ask himself this question: if your black daughters grew up to be beautiful, successful, famous women, with great achievements and some movie producer wanted to do a bio movie on them and he decided to pick blond hair, blue eyed, white women to play their parts how would you feel? How would your daughters feel?

 

[Coast]

With respect, this is a very different argument to

I can: experience.

**

I understand where you're coming from and can sympathise with the loss/change of a favourite character, however the characters cannot stay the same forever. The fact that this is happening speaks to the efforts that Marvel/DC, etc must go to in order to invigorate their titles and keep people buying them. It might be disappointing when it doesn't go the direction we'd like, but that's the world we live in. At the end of the day, it's their character to do with as they will. And personally, I'd rather see just about anyone in the suit than watch the title get stale and die out.

I don't think it's a spoiler, but I'll hide it

Spoiler: Iron Man Storyline

Tony Stark has moved on from being Iron Man and he passes the mantle onto a new character, who is a tech genius from MIT who had reverse engineered their own (less advanced) suit of armour and to get Stark's attention. Now he supports and mentors this character. Victor Von Doom has also got his hands on an Iron Man suit, which seems to be somewhat less controversial. The bloke retired, and someone else does his job now. This doesn't detract from Tony Stark, or change who and what he was.

The idea that this is raping our cultural identity makes me a bit uneasy. To me it suggests the belief that these characters were invented only for the enjoyment of white people. Comics do contribute to popular culture, but pop culture is a melting pot, not the property or domain of any one group. I may be naive, but I can't see how changing the person in the Iron Man suit from Caucasian to African American is an attack on white people or an attempt to make them feel guilty about who they are. Or indeed that the Iron Man character is being stolen from us. Caucasian people are at no risk of disappearing from comics - or books, TV, movies, music, politics........ But we are expected to share the stage a little more than we have historically.

As for casting movies, I agree that casting in that way for a biographical movie would be in poor taste, but we are not talking about bio's. We're talking about a fictional character. Bendis isn't taking real life people and trying to rewrite their history, he's replacing a character that he/Marvel owns with another character that he has invented.


To me, the battle over diversity - especially in comics - is being massively overplayed. Even in this thread there are opinions that they're doing too much for diversity, not enough for diversity, and focusing on the wrong type of diversity.

As J Riff mentions, the new Ancient One in Dr Strange is Tilda Swinton. When the movie was announced, the original comic was criticised for playing up the Asian stereotypes, specifically in the Ancient One character. When the casting was announced, they were criticised for white-washing the character by giving them a celtic heritage, and tokenism for making it female. Which goes to show that you'll never please everyone.

I don't know what the solution is, but I think at times that you've got to give people credit for at least trying to do something.


**Teenagers receiving powers that they're not equipped to handle is one of the flagstone of superhero stories.