They was or They were.

[AnyaKimlin]

When I am using they as a singular gender neutral pronoun is it they was or they were?

Around the corners of Nick’s mouth a smile was ghosting and they was fighting a desire to join in.

Was feels unnatural but were also feels wrong as this is singular.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

They were . They is plural. If you only have one they you might be into 2nd person.

 

[AnyaKimlin]

They were . They is plural. If you only have one they you might be into 2nd person.

I'm using it as the gender neutral singular pronoun. It's what people use in the trans/intersexed communities when gender is undetermined. In this instance its being used in place of he/she/it. That's why I am asking. They was feels unnatural but I am wondering if They were is wrong in this instance.

they - definition of they in English from the Oxford dictionary
2[SINGULAR] Used to refer to a person of unspecified gender:ask a friend if they could help

 

[Jo Zebedee]

I think I'd still be inclined to use were - of remodel the sentence

 

[Phyrebrat]

They was is horrid sounds like one of my kids. I'm with Jo on this.

pH

 

[mosaix]

Agree with Jo.

 

[AnyaKimlin]

From what I've read since posting the question it's a language issue that's influx. I think as this is referring to Nick I'm going to go with they was. It feels unnatural because it's unfamiliar but accepting people can be gender neutral is new and as yet there isn't another gender neutral pronoun except it which feels even worse.

I agree with you it sounds horrible but maybe this is a time to write a disclaimer on the blog and do the right thing. They was appears to be correct when using it in place of he/she/it

 

[HareBrain]

"I" is also singular (obvs) but you can have "I were" in the subjunctive ("If I were a carpenter"), so there is sort of precedent. I'm not sure "they was" will ever reach the point where it doesn't sound like a 1950s Cockney urchin.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Might be easier to simplify the sentence - it's not clear to me that Nick is the subject for "fighting the desire to join in". I actually thought the sentence referred to the corners of the mouth with "they were".

 

[Nick B]

To be honest, in this sentence, both feel strange. One looks plural, the other looks grammaticaly wrong. I would alter the sentence structure, maybe:



Around the corners of Nick’s mouth a smile was ghosting, as though they were fighting a desire to join in.

 

[AnyaKimlin]

the smile isn't fighting a desire to join in

I have gone with they was and written a blog post about it. After getting hubby to post on a trans group I think it's the way to go.

I tweaked it to At the corners of Nick's mouth.

After writing they was several times for the blog and on here and Facebook it became a little more natural so I think I can adjust to it over time.

 

[Ursa major]

Around the corners of Nick’s mouth a smile was ghosting and they was fighting a desire to join in.

Could you explain what is happening here (because it isn't at all clear to me)? This has nothing to do with whether 'was' or 'were' is being used.

 

[AnyaKimlin]

Could you explain what is happening here (because it isn't at all clear to me)? This has nothing to do with whether 'was' or 'were' is being used.

He's trying to work out whether or not to smile and whether or not to join in with his wife's hysterical laughter. It's an intense moment and he doesn't know why she is laughing.

I changed it to At the corners of Nick's mouth a smile was ghosting and they was fighting a desire to join in.

 

[Phyrebrat]

'...At the corners of Nick's mouth a smile was ghosting, fighting a desire to join in.'

Seems better. 'They was' is not correct outside of Eastenders or some estuarine Essex community...

You've identified Nick as 'he' in your post above, so why not just label him as he? I don't understand the dilemma.

pH

 

[AnyaKimlin]

'
You've identified Nick as 'he' in your post above, so why not just label him as he? I don't understand the dilemma.

pH

That's my personal issue. Nick should be she. The family is transitioning and it's the first time Nick has appeared as she. It's from his wife's POV and she's not ready for she so is looking at the alternatives. She can't pronounce hir (or other similar), it is too impersonal so the final one is they.

I wrote this on my blog last night after an awful lot of reading about it:

Getting the pronouns right when talking about any other transwoman is easy, peasy lemon squeezy but when it comes to Mr Kimlin I have deep entrenched habits and emotions involved. I’m not ready to have a wife yet. At home it’s easy when Mr Kimlin is Mr Kimlin I call him he and when Amanda is in a dress I call her she. It gets more complicated when he has chosen a halfway house and he’s neither one nor the other.

Today when writing Best Possible Taste: The Grand Reveal I had a dilemma. Steph isn’t ready to call Nick she any more than I was at that stage. She settled for the gender neutral they. All went well until I got to this sentence: At the corners of Nick’s mouth a smile was ghosting and they was fighting a desire to join in. After what felt like a long time she pulled herself together enough to ask, “For goodness sake, Nick, help me up.”

My first natural reaction was to write they were. It sounds right doesn’t it? But that’s because I had never really used they as a singular pronoun for a known and named person or character before. It caused me to pause. After talking to Banana Bug who is entirely comfortable with they as an alternative gender neutral pronoun and reading up online it appears to be a language issue in flux. As a result grammar rules appear to be changing in some quarters. They was vs they were became a serious issue and it is why Best Possible Taste was late going up tonight.

I have a family member who is intersexed and I know that around one in fifteen hundred babies is born neither entirely male nor female and I know that children have been maimed in the past when they’ve been altered so we can tick a legal gender box. This is as common as people with red hair yet we rarely talk about it.

We need a singular and gender neutral pronoun. The choices in English are it, they or hir (and other similar propositions). Hir and its associates are not yet well known and I’m not yet comfortable with using them plus I struggle to pronounce them. At the stage in the journey Steph is at it's unlikely she is o fay with them yet. The use of it as the pronoun is rude and impersonal. Neither Mr Kimlin nor Nick are objects. I’m left with they.

In Best Possible Taste and Kidology I have taken the decision to use they as a singular pronoun, but also to use it as he/she. Yes they was sounds horrible but the more I’ve written and thought about it they was has become less horrible and I’m warming to it.

 

[Wiglaf]

Singular they has been in use for nearly as long as singular you (in place of thou)*. It is always "you were"; it should be "they were" as well. The British even use "the team were" for a single team.

*It is typical when the gender is unknown, but it should work the same when the gender is non-binary.

 

[AnyaKimlin]

Singular they has been in use for nearly as long as singular you (in place of thou). It is always "you were"; it should be "they were" as well. The British even use "the team were" for a single team.

When I first asked the question I wasn't expecting it to develop in quite the same way as it did.

It hasn't been used in quite the same way. I think that's where the change is happening. Usually they was used were the gender was unknown but that person would have been he/she at other times, at least legally. Now its being used more widely, especially by my daughter's generation, in the same way we would use he/she but for people who choose not to be either he or she or indeed are not he or she. Even fourteen years ago when I first got married there wasn't the same demand for a new singular pronoun.

Unless hir or one of the other gender neutral pronouns becomes more popular and is accepted I'm going to use they/their/them.

This is about making intersexed (who don't identify one way or the other) and those of indeterminate gender equal with male and female. Its more than a grammar issue. It would be good if obviously intersexed children could be raised gender neutral until they have a say in the matter. The same with children like my youngest who says he is both boy and girl. He changes his mind from day to day.

 

[TheDustyZebra]

Singular they has been in use for nearly as long as singular you (in place of thou)*. It is always "you were"; it should be "they were" as well. The British even use "the team were" for a single team.

*It is typical when the gender is unknown, but it should work the same when the gender is non-binary.

Well, now, "the team were" is used when referring to the team as a collection of players rather than as a unit. The team was in first place, but the team were nearly ready for the game. Which is to say, the entire team as a unit is in first place, but when getting ready for the game, some of them are ready and some are not.

I think I would cast the sentence so as to avoid the matter entirely -- but that doesn't really solve the problem. If you want to use "they" for Nick, how about just rearranging it to be a bit more active, thus avoiding was/were?

"A smile ghosted around the corners of Nick's mouth as they fought a desire to join in."

 

[AnyaKimlin]

I had to get it up last night so its gone up as they was - plus it gave me a blog post that was picked up on Twitter by the LGBTQ community and got me 40 viewers in an hour.

I could rearrange it but the issue is going to come up on two of my blogs on a regular basis.

 

[Wiglaf]

AnyaKimlin, you were blogging. I'm speaking to you, I know who you are, and I use the plural verb. It seems to me they were would still be the best choice. They was would be as bad as zie (weird to say) and almost as bad as hir (a homophone of her is just silly), in my personal opinion.



Edit: Actually, I could probably get over zie was or another non-homophone pronoun much easier than they was. I just don't want to learn a new pronoun, but I guess I could get over it if there was some agreement and it wasn't ridiculously silly sounding and was one syllable.