Space Directions

[Gawian]

I'm not sure how many people here write space fights, whether it be capital ships or interceptor dogfights, but I'm wondering what the general accepted form of "directions" are.

As an example, there is a ship waiting, and a fighter flying towards him from the left, slightly up.

Would you say "fighter coming in, port side, 30 degree elevation?
Would you say "fighter coming in, bearing, 270 by 30."?

Battlestar Galactica had one, that I've become quite fond of it, where they use degrees and direction. So the callout would be "fighter coming in, 90 left, 30 high."

But I'm wondering if there is a writers standard for directions in space...

 

[Venusian Broon]

Unless you are describing the space combat in excruciating detail, is there any need to specify anything other the vaguest of directions (to make it sound cool, I assume)???

Otherwise, why not just pick the system that makes you feel most comfortable...

...as, I don't think there is a writer's standard for such a thing

 

[Juliana]

Um, second star to the right and straight on till morning? (SORRY! Sorry.)

I think it depends a lot on where you are in your story. If you're in the middle of a gripping action scene, too much technicality might detract from the urgency. While in a quieter section it could help add tension.

 

[Gawian]

I don't go into too much, but obviously, the character doesn't know everything that's going on, so there would be target callouts.

I was just wondering if there is a standard form, but if there isn't one, I'll use the third example I gave because it sounds nicest.

 

[zmunkz]

The only one I'm familiar with is ST:TNG, which used two angles separated by "mark" e.g., "heading 145 mark 223", or else a simple distance and relative direction, e.g., "20,000 kilometers off the starboard bow."

The former system is explained here: basically it is a 360-degree measurement in the galactic plane with the ship centered and the galaxy-core measured at 0, and a second 360-degree measurement at a right angle measuring degree of incline from the galactic plane.

I wouldn't worry about too many specifics... you can probably wing it or invent your own system, really, if you are just worried about the crew calling out consistent-sounding orders.

 

[TheDustyZebra]

At the risk of offending some people around here (you know who you are, but I'm actually not thinking of anyone specific because I can't recall exactly who you are, myself -- just that you're out there), I will say please just avoid using "north" and "east" and such. It makes me crazy when people talk about things in space using planetary directions. Weber does this, I know. East of what, exactly?

 

[Droflet]

You could revert to the old clock system. "Watch out red one, fighter coming on your six o'clock, high."
I agree Dusty the east etc doesn't work. UNLESS you're in a contained area of space. In Weber's universe it doesn't work but it does not mean that it can't, in the right environment. Know what I mean? Well, that my take on it.

 

[TheDustyZebra]

But east is just the direction from which the sun comes up. What is that, in even a contained area of space? It's completely relative, even on Earth. Everything is east of something else. Unless you refer solely to cultural areas, which a sun's system could theoretically have. But that's a location, not a direction.

 

[zmunkz]

I happen to agree about the north/south stuff... but just to be a contrarian, there is no reason a space-faring people couldn't have defined standard coordinates along the galactic plane and labeled them N/S/E/W. After all, even on earth the labels are merely by definition and convention, and vary depending if you mean polar or magnetic.

For instance, we could easily decide that the galactic center is the origin of the cartesian plane, and M 33 is defined as glactic-north. Then N/S/E/W makes perfect sense.

 

[VinceK]

I think in the chaos that is combat, it would be safe to assume there would be a variety of directional communications: vectors, clock position, second quadrant, "It's behind you!"
In flight, a heading would be used relative to the star system. As @zmunkz described.
For navigational purposes, especially when plotting journeys into uncharted space, Galactic Coordinates might be more appropriate.

 

[Dave Barsby]

I think the first one sounds best if it's being barked out from a command centre, if it is someone in a fighter warning another pilot "he's on your six" tends to be standard.

In the end, this is sci-fi so we're all making stuff up as we go along, and as long as the reader can understand what you mean (or you subtly explain it in the first instance) you can use whatever concept you come up with. All I'd say is remember that for the characters it will have been in standard use for a while, so if they're under attack I think instead of "fighter coming in, bearing 270 by 30" they'd have shortened it to "fighter, 270 by 30" for speed.

 

[Ursa major]

Speaking of pet peeves (so this post is TDZ's fault, not mine ) here's one of mine: ships with very advanced technology where the captain has to say "Switch to back-up" when a primary system (probably one of many!) fails and "Raise** the shields!" on the approach of, say, a photon torpedo.

So, to get back to the thread topic, how often would anyone say "fighter coming in, <some sort of directional information>"?

Wouldn't the person/people who needs/need to know have the information presented to them in a way that requires no speech? And, probably, computer systems that simply offer them alternative responses in the situation, such as alternative vectors/manoeuvres (if avoidance action is required) or targeting and weapon options? And that's assuming the ship doesn't simply take the appropriate action itself (as -- although it probably isn't the best example -- the M-5 Multitronic System did in ST:TOS's The Ultimate Computer).

Of course, there may be situations -- temporary; or part of the universe, such as fear of AIs (Dune, Battlestar Galactica?) -- where such automation is either out of action or forbidden, in which case the crew of a highly advanced craft (or fleet of craft) may have to act as if they're in a WWII dogfight, but I'm not sure. And even then... if the author wants to include action that involves people acting in stressful situations when their actions make all the difference, it would be nice if the author could make the particular situation plausible rather than simply an example of the (not very plausible) norm.



** - I suppose the only issue (at least on Start Trek), is that the shields stop the transporters working, so there may -- in theory -- be a safety issue with having the ship's computer in sole control of the shields. On the other hand: 1) there's little point in being precious about a few people dying when the transporter can't operate half way through a transfer when the whole ship may be in danger of being destroyed; 2) how often does the captain ask, "Are the transporters being used?" before ordering the shields to be raised?

 

[Gawian]

Lots of good points raised here. I will say yeah... Compass Directions make no sense in space. East of what? Is it east of the front of your ship? Because if they're facing a different direction, their east will be different to your east? Very bizarre system.

As for the shortened call outs, I'm aware of that, but I was just using it as an example. If the fighter is friendly though, coming in for resupply, there wouldn't be much urgency... anyway, that bit doesn't matter ahaha. As for different forms of callout, behind and ahead are standard, but if someone yelled out "enemy coming in beside me", without giving a direction in the enormity of space, they probably deserve to die...

The mark system could work, but I have to admit, I always was confused a little by it when I read books. Like when I read it, I would have to stop and picture the axis, then mentally plot where it was, and it always took me a while. Whereas, 4oclock high, or 40 right low, I can picture much quicker. I suppose that's different for everyone though. Considering I did well in Maths, I struggle a bit now.

@Ursa major -- It is is presented in a way that makes quick, but sometimes, taking a few seconds to look at your instruments could get you or someone else killed. If person A is trying to gun down robot A that is trying to kill person B, they may not look at their instruments and see Robot B behind them.

Also, the scale of my battle is quite large, and the scanning range of a fighter is small, compared to that of a frigate. So while the fighter may detect the frigate on the boundaries of its sensors, it may not see the wing of enemy bombers coming towards it from the other side. So there are many reasons for enemy callouts to be necessary.

 

[Venusian Broon]

At the risk of offending some people around here (you know who you are, but I'm actually not thinking of anyone specific because I can't recall exactly who you are, myself -- just that you're out there), I will say please just avoid using "north" and "east" and such. It makes me crazy when people talk about things in space using planetary directions. Weber does this, I know. East of what, exactly?

Ermmm... the International Astronomical Union refined the already utilised Galactic coordinate system (originally set up in 1785) in 1953 and in that it explains exactly how the Galactic north and south poles are defined...and when you have them, then having East and West are pretty easy to fit in, except you would probably relate them to the direction of rotation of the galaxy.

Galactic coordinate system - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So Weber is scientifically spot on.

North/South/East/West may have arisen from consideration of direction on a planet, but they can easily be applied to any other object (with a bit of explanation and set up) as they are fundamentally just directions. And you really just need to define one set: i.e. N-S, because then after that we know by convention where to put W-E given our orientation. (Well it's simple for me to visualise )

 

[Brian G Turner]

If it has to be vocalised, I would think you'd only need port, aft, etc. Presumably the technology level on a starship will at least involve holographic screens - in which case, whoever is doing the spotting can then move the info with the flick of a finger into a window other crew members can reference.

Remember, people only do this in films and TV to let the audience know what's happening...

Also, be careful - space is vast. Jack Campbell's Lost Fleet series at least shows that aspect. In other words - unless that attacking ship is very very close, it's going to take a very long time to reach the target. In the same regard, if it's so close that it'll reach the target in seconds, then any co-ordinates provided will be out of date the moment they are given.

Just flick the computer tracking solution to anyone who needs it, instead of shouting out like excited school children.

 

[Ursa major]

Sorry, I don't want to derail the thread, but....

taking a few seconds to look at your instruments could get you or someone else killed

...which is why I mentioned the system(s) taking the action automatically.

If person A is trying to gun down robot A that is trying to kill person B, they may not look at their instruments and see Robot B behind them.

So why doesn't the person (Person X**) who does see Robot B take action against Robot B? Surely there's no point in telling Person A at all?

After all, what is Person A going to do with the information? Is Person A going to waste valuable seconds turning and firing (leaving Person B to the mercy of Robot A), or is Person A going to enter in the coordinates they've just heard into their weapons system (assuming that Person A's weapons system can fire to person A's rear)?

Surely, if Person X is going to say anything, it would be "Duck!" or "Behind you!" rather than an accurate relative direction (which has to be from the perspective of Person A -- not Person X -- to be of any use at all).


But it's your story and the way you tell it -- and the technology available to your characters -- is entirely up to you.


** - Where Person X may be Person B

 

[Gawian]

Also, be careful - space is vast. Jack Campbell's Lost Fleet series at least shows that aspect. In other words - unless that attacking ship is very very close, it's going to take a very long time to reach the target. In the same regard, if it's so close that it'll reach the target in seconds, then any co-ordinates provided will be out of date the moment they are given.

That's why I'm against co-ordinates. But a direction will be fairly consistent. If you call out there's someone on the port, then unless it's a late and useless callout, chances are they will still be port-side when someone else tags them.

@Ursa major

There's all sorts of reasons man. Even the military now has callouts. If you're focusing on saving someone and dont notice an enemy taking shots at you, then someone calling out you've got one on your six will make you realise you need to take evasive action until someone helps you out. Or launch/activate any kind of counter-measure system.

I'm not saying technology isn't helpful in that situation, but having a person calling out positions is more likely to save your life. Dont' forget, in a big ol' dogfight, there are going to be so many blips on your instruments that a quick glance will only give you a brief summary.

But this isn't just about dogfights, that was just an example. It's also for cannon fire. If you need to redirect a weapon firing, you could say "redirect fire, 10 degrees starboard."

Having technology tell you a situation is helpful, but it's easily tricked.

 

[TheDustyZebra]

Ermmm... the International Astronomical Union refined the already utilised Galactic coordinate system (originally set up in 1785) in 1953 and in that it explains exactly how the Galactic north and south poles are defined...and when you have them, then having East and West are pretty easy to fit in, except you would probably relate them to the direction of rotation of the galaxy.

Really? I can't believe I didn't get the memo.



(Somebody probably didn't want to have to explain it to me and watch my brain explode.)

 

[Venusian Broon]

Really? I can't believe I didn't get the memo.

(Somebody probably didn't want to have to explain it to me and watch my brain explode.)

If you think about it, it is quite easy . North and South refer to a directions towards each end of planet/object's axis of rotation, of which there will only be two. (Which end is which requires an additional definition - see below) Then West and East could refer to either 'going with the rotation' and 'going against the rotation'. So East in Earth's case means 'the direction the sun rises from'. But as we know the Sun does not rise, the Earth just rotates, so going East, in a more general sense, could mean going 'the direction* the Earth/object is spinning' while going West is the opposite.

A galaxy such as the Milky way has an axis of rotation through the centre, hence a place for North and South poles, and a rotation - so one could, I suppose - define an East and West using that rotation**. Oh and a 'In and Out' direction for the full 3-D effect




Here is an interesting piece on how you define north poles of things outside Earth...

Poles of astronomical bodies - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thus all you need is the rotation of an object and you can put in your 'Space' Cardinal points. I guessed before reading this they would use something like the right hand rule, physics is full of such things.

What one does if an object does not have a rotation, I do not know. Probably you just point at a bit and say 'Here is the North' and work from that.

------------------------------------

* Thinking about it, I have to be careful here because the Cardinal directions are a two dimensional system superimposed on a three dimension curvy object, but I hope you know what I mean.

** I say suppose, because I've not really come across anyone officially use terminology like 'the mysterious alien object is East of our Star system' etc...

 

[Dennis E. Taylor]

But east is just the direction from which the sun comes up. What is that, in even a contained area of space? It's completely relative, even on Earth. Everything is east of something else. Unless you refer solely to cultural areas, which a sun's system could theoretically have. But that's a location, not a direction.

Stellar north is the pole that seems to rotate CCW. Just like Earth. Galactic north is the direction from which the galaxy seems to rotate CCW. East is spinward, west is anti-spinward.