Space Directions

[SilentRoamer]

Now to touch on one of my pet peeves. --- Space Combat is not the same as a atmospheric fighter dog fight. Even at speeds which make inter-planetary flight feasible, to say nothing of speeds best described as 1% of light etc. there would be little time for evasive actions. Most combat would be blink of an eye fast. Probably completely computer directed. No time (and if the speed of light is not ignored) and no ability to get information to another fighter for them to make use of it.

Walter Jon Williams Dread Empires Fall has an interesting missile system.

Red shifted relativistic rockets anyone

 

[Gawian]

Now to touch on one of my pet peeves. --- Space Combat is not the same as a atmospheric fighter dog fight. Even at speeds which make inter-planetary flight feasible, to say nothing of speeds best described as 1% of light etc. there would be little time for evasive actions. Most combat would be blink of an eye fast. Probably completely computer directed. No time (and if the speed of light is not ignored) and no ability to get information to another fighter for them to make use of it.

Implying that any strike craft in space are capable of inter-planetary flight??
The drone fighters in Enders Game couldn't manage any incredible speeds.
The Vipers in BSG, same.
The F-302 in Stargate, just a overpowered jet plane.

Have you read any of the Warhammer 40000 books? Space Combat in that is sluggish as hell.
The ships are huge and slow. The guns are even slower, requiring a combination of both computer and eyeball targeting.

 

[Parson]

I have read a Warhammer 4000 book or two. Is Armor by John Steakley in that universe? If so I was much impressed.

But I am not convinced by "slow" space combat. The only place I can readily imagine where there might be time enough for a real dog fight would be when one ship or squadron of fighters overhauls another with little to no difference in their top possible speed. I think David Weber comes the closest for me to have a believable "dog fight" scenario in space and of the battles I remember most of them have ships overhauling either directly astern or mostly astern of the other fighters.

 

[sozme]

Weber does this, I know. East of what, exactly?

Does he really? Lol.

 

[SilentRoamer]

Always worth remembering that the only way to brake in space is to accelerate in the opposite direction. You can't just take your hand off the thruster!

That was the worst thing about the BSG remake, the space dogfights were basically atmospheric dogfights in space - they didn't change any of the rules.

 

[Vertigo]

That was another grouch I had with the recent Nick Webb book Constitution that I read recently. Not only do the space fighters perform manoeuvre only realistic in atmosphere but they seem to be able to perform equally well in vacuum and atmosphere. The two environments are so totally different I really can't see any way that would work. It's one thing to have the space shuttle that can work in both environments (just - it wasn't exactly nimble coming in to land) but space fighters; I think not!

@SilentRoamer I've always thought that a truly effective space fighter would have to have three pairs of equal and opposing thrusters. One for each dimension. A sphere would see like a sensible shape.

 

[SilentRoamer]

Yeah you would definitely need multiple direction thrusters but again I just don't see rockets being particularly effective - I expect most would need some kind of automated targeting systems. relativistic speeds make any human controller null and void.

I think the best bet (excluding any high powered masers or lasers as I don't think these would be effective - inverse square law being the main reducing factor) would be to just launch relativistic projectiles at the enemy vessel. Explosives as the delivery force are fairly useless as most of the energy goes back into space. With a large enough mass hitting at relativistic speeds would be like a nuke hitting the side of a ship and a large proportion of that energy is going to transfer directly into the enemy ship.

Of course you have to calculate enemy speed and your speed and any potential gravity wells altering courses etc. in fast time which is why I would expect AI to do most of the automated targeting with humans probably just directing the AI in particular patterns.

I also like the idea of Von Neumann missiles - missile hits you and then begins to destroy your ship through self replication.

 

[Gawian]

The RCS Thrusters on a Viper make it more manoeuvrable than anything else I've seen. Sure, their main engines only move them forward, but with their thrusters, they can literally turn on a dime, and move at some speed in any direction they want.

You see it in the first episodes of the remake, during the Battle of Ragnar Anchorage. Three vipers, destroy three raiders, and they're basically flying sideways at the time.

Or maybe a better example would be the dogfight had between the Pegasus and Galactica Vipers in the episode Resurrection Ship.
In part 2, when they're actually destroy the Resurrection Ship, the Vipers are seen flying sideways, strafing the windows of the Rez-Ship.

 

[SilentRoamer]

The RCS Thrusters on a Viper make it more manoeuvrable than anything else I've seen. Sure, their main engines only move them forward, but with their thrusters, they can literally turn on a dime, and move at some speed in any direction they want.

Yeah I like the idea of the RCS thrusters they just don't hold up to any rigorous scrutiny. Once something is in motion it does not require continued force to carry on this motion, so to "turn on a dime" you would need to:

1. Accelerate the initial direction you wanted to go.
2. Turn yourself around and accelerate in the opposite direction until you begin to stop/slow. (Or use thrusters already pointed in said direction)
3. Re-orient to the new direction you want to go in.
4. Accelerate again in the new orientation.

Strafing would be king in space battles I think.

 

[Phyrebrat]

BSG vipers and raptors had multi-directional thrusters but they were tiny compared to their 'engines'

But so what? It's not hard scifi. Although I did like the muted sound they gave things in slight deference to the vacuum of space.

Incidentally, did you object to 'resurrection technology'?

I'm very uneducated when it comes to science so I accept pretty much everything. It makes for splendid entertainment.

In TFA I didn't even question Starkiller base's weapon speed until I read the complaints on line.

(I objected far more to the embarrassing nazi rally scene where Domnhall's speech just made me cringe. )

Bad science yes, bad narrative, no.

pH

 

[Vertigo]

To be fair when I was talking fighters I wasn't really thinking of relativistic speeds. I think Jack Campbells Lost Fleet series, again, handles that issue particularly well; essentially saying that if the two forces have a closing velocity above .2 light speed then any attempt at firing is going to require far more luck than judgement. And even below those speeds everything must be programmed in beforehand and the actual firing left entirely to the computers as our reactions simply wouldn't be fast enough.

 

[Venusian Broon]

Talking about another media - Computer games - that have crap non-real space physics...

In EVE online, you hit afterburners or microwarp to increase your speed on your spacecraft, and dutifully doing so raises your speed. Fair enough, makes sense.

But wait a minute - the second you switch them off - the spacecraft's speed drops to it's original cruising speed. The vacuum of space in EVE Online must be not so vacuum-like. (More like thick pea soup...)

 

[Mirannan]

Talking about another media - Computer games - that have crap non-real space physics...

In EVE online, you hit afterburners or microwarp to increase your speed on your spacecraft, and dutifully doing so raises your speed. Fair enough, makes sense.

But wait a minute - the second you switch them off - the spacecraft's speed drops to it's original cruising speed. The vacuum of space in EVE Online must be not so vacuum-like. (More like thick pea soup...)

Hmmm... There is a possible justification, given that EVE's humans have access to physics we don't know about yet as (for a start!) they have FTL; even warping around a system is considerably above lightspeed, never mind intersystem jumps.

The get-out, IMHO, is that the speed of EVE ships is some sort of pseudospeed, a la Bergenholm or stutterwarp drive, and in such a case it makes perfect sense for speed to drop when the engine is switched off. Or at least that the speed boost given by a microwarp (clue in the name!) is something like that. Perhaps an afterburner is just a low-powered MWD, despite the name.

 

[ralphkern]

A couple of games which really stood out, but are sadly getting on a bit now:

Independence War: Realistic physics (for space combat). A well realised universe. Lots of fun. Felt like bridge combat rather than fighter combat though although had its moments. Also it had one of the best introduction videos.

Elite Frontier: Yeah, good luck on shooting anything down if you didn't pause at every opportunity.

 

[Venusian Broon]

Hmmm... There is a possible justification, given that EVE's humans have access to physics we don't know about yet as (for a start!) they have FTL; even warping around a system is considerably above lightspeed, never mind intersystem jumps.

The get-out, IMHO, is that the speed of EVE ships is some sort of pseudospeed, a la Bergenholm or stutterwarp drive, and in such a case it makes perfect sense for speed to drop when the engine is switched off. Or at least that the speed boost given by a microwarp (clue in the name!) is something like that. Perhaps an afterburner is just a low-powered MWD, despite the name.

An interesting get-out

Yes they have the warping about the individual systems*, which clearly must be FTL.

The game describes microwarp drives as "Massive boost to speed for a very short time. The thrust that boosts the ship, and the corresponding maximum velocity bonus, are limited by the mass of the ship that uses this module."

But the distances in game match the velocities as stated, so unless the distances are pseudo-distances as well, then I call fail .

Now if it was acceleration it'd make sense...but then it would play havoc trying to velocity match fleets of people's ships together. Let's face it, EVE is really a very fancy futuristic naval shipping simulator.

-----------------------------------------

* That for some reason all only have one star, where are the binaries???

 

[Mirannan]

Venusian - I don't see your argument. By "pseudo-velocity" I mean a velocity that doesn't have any other characteristics of velocity other than direction and speed, as in distance covered per unit time. For example, taking the Bergenholm drive as an example: This thing works by removing inertia in its field area, and that means that speed is governed by drag; even interstellar space has some rarefied gas in it, and that limits speed by all the obvious methods. It logically follows that ship with this drive would be considerably slower inside a nebula such as the Orion nebula; this is not covered in the stories at all, as far as I can see. However, running the drive does not affect your momentum and KE when the drive is switched off, and this follows logically.

Of course, the interplanetary medium is much thicker than interstellar space and that would slow your ship down even more.

Heck, EVE is a game! Something not covered is that the normal insystem warp ought to get you to interstellar distances in a reasonably short time; running the warp drive in a normal ship gets you 3AU per second for a range of around 90AU (IIRC, haven't played the game in years) and the capacitors take maybe a couple of minutes to recharge from the power plant. So you get 90AU in maybe 4 minutes, or 1350 AU per hour. 1 lightyear is around 60,000 AU, so that's a lightyear in a couple of days. Or about 180c. Or about warp 2.5, for ST fans.

 

[SilentRoamer]

Incidentally, did you object to 'resurrection technology'?

Nope i liked all the Cylon stuff.

 

[Venusian Broon]

oh I see! - I had a weird definition in my head of what a pseudo-velocity was - it was not what you meant. When you wrote that, my mind went to pseudovectors and cross products (even psuedofunctions, but that's something totally different.) and I constructed something bizarre...be careful adding pseudo to terms

I suppose by any standard all space in Eve Online is really thick with gas and drag then - given that the fastest real human objects are already clocked in at 70km/s around the sun (and to be fair we haven't really tried for a man-made interstellar speed test); while ignoring the warp stuff, the fastest Eve ship in local space, is I believe, only a mere 20km/s.

I'm not a great fan of Bergenholm drives - I came across them in Reynolds writing in the Revelation trilogy and he kinda skimps over how they are supposed to work, other than the basics. They were a bit too hand-wavy after loads of 'close to reality' stuff.

 

[Mirannan]

oh I see! - I had a weird definition in my head of what a pseudo-velocity was - it was not what you meant. When you wrote that, my mind went to pseudovectors and cross products (even psuedofunctions, but that's something totally different.) and I constructed something bizarre...be careful adding pseudo to terms

I suppose by any standard all space in Eve Online is really thick with gas and drag then - given that the fastest real human objects are already clocked in at 70km/s around the sun (and to be fair we haven't really tried for a man-made interstellar speed test); while ignoring the warp stuff, the fastest Eve ship in local space, is I believe, only a mere 20km/s.

I'm not a great fan of Bergenholm drives - I came across them in Reynolds writing in the Revelation trilogy and he kinda skimps over how they are supposed to work, other than the basics. They were a bit too hand-wavy after loads of 'close to reality' stuff.

I'm showing my age writing this, but I didn't even know that Reynolds had Bergenholms in his milieu. I'm old school; the one I was referring to was the one from the Lensmen series. In any event, what they basically do is switch off inertia.

 

[Venusian Broon]

I'm showing my age writing this, but I didn't even know that Reynolds had Bergenholms in his milieu. I'm old school; the one I was referring to was the one from the Lensmen series. In any event, what they basically do is switch off inertia.

One of these days I may get round to reading some of these Lensmen books, unfortunately I have a metre pile of books in the room waiting to be read and a list in my head that could easily add another three or four