Timeless - NBC's "Hard SF" & "Historical" TT Series

[Cli-Fi]

I think this is a great show, but it isn't hard science fiction if you believe all time travel is fantasy. There are some big inconsistencies with the disappearing sister story-line. If her mother and father never got together and Lucy wasn't ever born then no one would remember her. Instead of old photographs with her fiance on the beach, they would instead be asking who the hell are you - which happened in Back to the Future - a film they referenced when Wyatt sent a telegram back to the future. It wasn't explained why that telegram didn't work either.

I do like the fact that there is an arc story here that has been well thought out beforehand (so very much like Continuum in that respect.) I don't think 'monster of the week' is the relevant term to use here though. It is more like Sliders than it is like Time Tunnel in that things progress and change as we go on, rather than being reset each week at the end. Also there is a constant villain and evil corporation. I liked that the plutonium was stolen to make a battery so that they weren't tied down to one place to recharge, but that it also gave rise to an episode where it might have been a V2 payload. I like that the good guys might be playing for the wrong team. I hope some of the puzzles will be revealed before the end of the Season.

I've not seen it all, so a lot of the above comments are spoilers to me, but Rufus needs to fess up soon. His family can't be in as much danger from the suited man with The Day the Earth Stood Still car immobiliser than they already are from a possible change in the timeline. After hearing about Lucy's family problems, that would be my major concern, so tell the people you can trust about it.

While I don't see it in competition with, or even very like Doctor Who at all, the original concept for Doctor Who was to be exactly this - a historical based show, to educate children in history. There was an executive order that were to be NO bug-eyed-monsters. Of course, the second story introduced the Daleks and that rule book was torn up. I wonder how long it will be before Timeless introduces it's own bug-eyed-monsters? Sliders did it with the Kromags and that was when it jumped-the-shark.

Yes, with timeless you have to go in knowing that you have to suspend disbelief. I see it as a mix between Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. and Sliders. There are plenty of problems with the timeline however. And something tells me that they are beginning not to care about trying to fix it. There was that caution in perhaps the first two episodes, but now it's a free for all. They are killing way too many people close to actual history, who are just removed enough from the famous legends we all know. It's a bit unbelievable that the only sighting of them throughout all of this is in a NASA basement.

The caution that was there in the first two episodes is now gone, replaced by that sheer American bravado which works well enough. However, it is getting dangerously close to paradoxes that could or could not destroy the universe if whatever event that they messed up didn't turn out the way it really happened. You could even say that it jumped the shark in episode two with the assassination of Lincoln. I am shocked that nothing more drastic other than Lucy losing her sister, has happened in modern times. Are you telling me that if John Wilkes Booth didn't kill Lincoln, the universe would be A-OK with that??? Of course, I am probably over thinking this.

Obviously, Agent Christopher knows that her life can be messed up due to this, but it's like the other characters don't even seem to mind. That or they have no lives? But if they have no lives, why aren't they not suddenly living life? How could you even have a stable relationship with someone who works so close to time travel knowing that in any new timeline they could end up in a different relationship living a different life? maybe that's way too complex for this show and most audiences to understand though and that's why they shy away from all that.

I get that Lucy is the main character, but if a time travel story is to be more believable they need to make some stuff start happening to the other characters, too! No I am not talking about relationship drama and Rittenhouse spies. We know nothing of any of the other team member's personal lives and Agent Christopher is hardly a main character. That being said, I expect a Wyatt Zombie wife episode soon.

 

[Dave]

As you will gather, I'm a little behind in this, so I now understand that Lucy's real father was never the father she thought he was, and hence, the missing sister makes sense. I'm also sure, somehow that Wyatt's "Zombie Wife" will appear, but is "everything" here not somehow interconnected? Could she not have been strangled by Ritterhouse agents who knew exactly where and when she would step out of the car? And we did see Rufus's family, or at least, saw his sister and heard about the nephew. I agree that we should see more of them to have any emotional attachment if they should ever happen to disappear.

There is a school of thought that many things in history would have inevitably happened; that when we are taught in school that X War began because of Y or that A happened because of B, that in actual fact, there were many more factors involved and that at some point, maybe only slightly later, it was "fated" to happen anyway because it had the inertia of a steam-train. I think the writers subscribe to this view, and so that is why it doesn't really matter how much the characters tinker around in the past, the main thrust of history remains unchanged. I think it is also difficult to describe the ways in which the present has been changed because it would take up too much time and not be very interesting. The series Sliders cleverly used the garden with the fence and broken gate as a kind of grounding in the "prime universe".

Lucy's journal ought to become apocryphal at some point though. They are changing history so much, that it is very unlikely that the two timelines could stay so close together that the journal was an accurate account of the different journey they are making.

 

[Dave]

I'm really liking this series, but the best line by far has to be, "He's not Wesley Snipes, trust me!"

Edit: Closely followed by "Thank you Agent Mulder."

 

[Cli-Fi]

I'm really liking this series, but the best line by far has to be, "He's not Wesley Snipes, trust me!"

Edit: Closely followed by "Thank you Agent Mulder."

Oh yeah they can have fun with those names, but they aren't even careful about that. :sighs:

 

[ctg]

The Assassination of Jesse James - Part II

It's been a while since I bothered writing about this series even though I have mentioned it in the other threads. This episode was at the same time eye-opening and a change to the norm, but it was also a humongous failure.

I understand the need to go back to rescue a lost pilot as that is something I've been complaining about it. Timeless hasn't really shown anything other than long tales about the Writenhouse. Even when they have dived into it, nothing has come out it. Nothing other than just tales.

Then you see the lonely hut in the middle of the forest and you find out that it is occupied by a lonely pilot. The only pilot Mason Industries had before Timeless Events began and you realise that she, the book, our antagonist and the hidden bad guys are paradoxes.

They should not have existed but they do and therefore, the tale is entablegled in the web of lies and the truth is revealed. I can almost suspect who the Writtenhouse is even though I haven't seen his face, yet.

But what made the Assassination a failure was by giving Jesse James a proper modern rifle after he recognised its value and then make him to be stupid. Jesse would have understood the value of ammo, the rifle, whole package as if he would have kept it and planned Lone Rangers assassination properly, he wouldn't ever had gone Rambo.

Even the sound effects were unrealistic. Not talking about the size of clip.

I think NBC really cocked it up and for that

NBC should do much better than cocking things up, when they're losing the game to Netflix's original series. Who is going to buy this s...?

 

[tinkerdan]

entablegled?

They should not have existed but they do and therefore, the tale is entablegled in the web of lies and the truth is revealed. I can almost suspect who the Writtenhouse is even though I haven't seen his face, yet.

Damn I hate it when changing history starts messing with language.

I like the show but I haven't watched this last episode yet and I'm uncertain how they are handling the hotbed that is the legend of the Lone Ranger.

 

[ctg]

entablegled?

I know. I had to get it out from my mind just like it is with so many things these days.

the hotbed that is the legend of the Lone Ranger.

Yeah. Exactly the point. What they do is very beautiful and everyone put in a lot of effort behind very complicated Timeless Event and another alteration in the timeline. But instead of just playing the act, they get the scene, the story and the act very right. The post-process edit is where they cocked it up.

I don't know was it producers fault or if the studio interacted, but instead of pushing the series up, they spoiled whole cake. And that is sad.

Maybe it doesn't matter because the keep aiming so low, when it's very evident that they could still fix thing and be ballsy with their moves, instead of going down in the history as another failed SF/Fantasy series.

 

[Cli-Fi]

I know. I had to get it out from my mind just like it is with so many things these days.



Yeah. Exactly the point. What they do is very beautiful and everyone put in a lot of effort behind very complicated Timeless Event and another alteration in the timeline. But instead of just playing the act, they get the scene, the story and the act very right. The post-process edit is where they cocked it up.

I don't know was it producers fault or if the studio interacted, but instead of pushing the series up, they spoiled whole cake. And that is sad.

Maybe it doesn't matter because the keep aiming so low, when it's very evident that they could still fix thing and be ballsy with their moves, instead of going down in the history as another failed SF/Fantasy series.

I think you shut down this thread with your harsh words of criticism @ctg, however I still like the show, because I have come to expect it. it's my escapism show along with Hawaii Five-0 and Agents of Shield. I don't take them too seriously either.

The latest episodes have been revealing a bit more about Rittenhouse and how they seemingly control everything.

In last night's episode

Spoiler

The team meets Lucy's father, and they also meet Charles Lindbergh, Ernest Hemingway, and other greats. Lucy gets her journal and the team gets taken over by The NSA. Rittenhouse is blamed for Charles becoming a Nazi sympathizer because they wanted him to be. Which is very, very interesting. It doesn't fill in all the holes, but it ramps things up a bit where I can sort of see where it is going.

The question remains is Rittenhouse responsible for everything exciting or influential that has happened in American History? And if so, why should they continue to preserve it?

 

[Parson]

Yes, this was a bit of a revealing episode. It is now possible to see how Lucy might indeed change sides.

Spoiler

This show played a bit loose with Lindbergh. I would say he was more of an isolationist than a Nazi supporter. He flew 50 combat missions in the Pacific theater of World War II.

 

[ctg]

I think you shut down this thread with your harsh words of criticism

Sorry.

The question remains is Rittenhouse responsible for everything exciting or influential that has happened in American History? And if so, why should they continue to preserve it?

Not just in America. Last episode happened in the France, where people don't have an accent and where they speak perfect English. Spirit of St Lois flight inspired whole world, not just Americans.

Yes, this was a bit of a revealing episode. It is now possible to see how Lucy might indeed change sides.

I thought this was a good development. If they give the characters human face, then maybe people like me shut up.

 

[Cli-Fi]

Yes, this was a bit of a revealing episode. It is now possible to see how Lucy might indeed change sides.

And that may very well be the right one.

 

[Cli-Fi]

Sorry.



Not just in America. Last episode happened in the France, where people don't have an accent and where they speak perfect English. Spirit of St Lois flight inspired whole world, not just Americans.

Of course I know, but it's been predominately American as you pointed out with this episode taking place in Paris and there was two lines of French. So yeah, I don't see how nothing could have changed if Lindbergh crash landed and was missing for hours on end, oh he took credit anyway doesn't hold up. Those pictures of him landing in Paris are iconic.

 

[Parson]

Of course I know, but it's been predominately American as you pointed out with this episode taking place in Paris and there was two lines of French. So yeah, I don't see how nothing could have changed if Lindbergh crash landed and was missing for hours on end, oh he took credit anyway doesn't hold up. Those pictures of him landing in Paris are iconic.

As with anything that did not happen, you cannot be sure what also would have happened, if what did not happen had happened.*
*(Sounds like double speak but I believe that's clear)

 

[Cli-Fi]

As with anything that did not happen, you cannot be sure what also would have happened, if what did not happen had happened.*
*(Sounds like double speak but I believe that's clear)

Sounds like something one of President Trump's minions would say

 

[ctg]

What also would have happened, if what did not happen, had happened.

I added a comma to make it clearer. This is exactly the point that was raised in the Travellers. It is the doubt that keeps me critiquing bad bits and the love for all things time-travel related.

 

[Cli-Fi]

I added a comma to make it clearer. This is exactly the point that was raised in the Travellers. It is the doubt that keeps me critiquing bad bits and the love for all things time-travel related.

Still I think it's safe to say that there would be massive changes in airports and airplanes. Perhaps a slower rate of adaption and then coincidentally no 9/11 to happen on 9/11, yet they get to the future and everything is exactly the same again. It just goes to prove that this show is not something that thinks outside the monster of the week/ rittenhouse storylines.

 

[ctg]

It just goes to prove that this show is not something that thinks outside the monster of the week/ rittenhouse storylines.

Indeed, except the last episode, which either proves they read the forum or then they figured out that somethings aren't going to last. I strongly believe Netflix style with massive balls is the way going forward, while the monster-of-the-week might get buried under a wave of new works that aren't afraid of pushing some boundaries.

 

[tinkerdan]

Don't you just love it when someone takes a Happen Stance

As with anything that did not happen, you cannot be sure what also would have happened, if what did not happen had happened.*
*(Sounds like double speak but I believe that's clear)

 

[Parson]

Still I think it's safe to say that there would be massive changes in airports and airplanes. Perhaps a slower rate of adaption and then coincidentally no 9/11 to happen on 9/11, yet they get to the future and everything is exactly the same again. It just goes to prove that this show is not something that thinks outside the monster of the week/ rittenhouse storylines.

Can't buy this. I think the story line to be the most logical outcome. I tend to see time travel changes would be more like a pebble thrown into a pond. Some slightly significant change on target, and slight changes down line but the further down line you get the less the change is until it is all but indecipherable.

 

[Cli-Fi]

Indeed, except the last episode, which either proves they read the forum or then they figured out that somethings aren't going to last. I strongly believe Netflix style with massive balls is the way going forward, while the monster-of-the-week might get buried under a wave of new works that aren't afraid of pushing some boundaries.

Supernatural is about the only sci-fi show that still gets the "literal" monster of the week episodes right head on. Even the newly released X-Files episodes seemed dated. Supernatural is 11 freaking years old, been watching it from the beginning and I have not been disappointed by an episode yet. Sure you can critique the religious mythology and all that, but in the end it's their interpretation of things.

I think the thing with Time Travel, is that it's a bit tricky to take serious. You can't interpret history. You can't interpret what would have happened if some guy other than John Wilkes Booth killed Lincoln. You just have this gut feeling that the universe would explode, like Doc Brown said, in Back to the Future.

So what's left? a big ball of wibbily wobbly timey wimey stuff. I've tried take a serious approach to time travel. I still want to do it and others like Supernatural have entered into that area, but they tend to be more subtle and not as far reaching as Timeless. or in supernatural's case, it's very easily reversible. In timeless there's just no consequences, except to move the storyline forward. EG: Wyatt's Wife. Timeless was never meant to be that show to bring time travel to the mainstream, it's a fun americana action flick that makes no sense. A lot like the first Terminator movie, but hopefully this does spark some interest in the genre. Who can read an article today about AI and not think about Skynet? Time Travel is definitely a realm of sci-fi that hasn't been entirely thought out or even cemented with any proper canon/rules. So there is room there for someone to do that.

If someone is to do it, they better get going before Marvel Phase 5 comes out. Because now that Dr. Strange has entered the mix, I can easily see all that stuff coming fruition after Phase 4 is done with. In my time travel research there is a lot of good stuff Marvel Comics has thought about with Time Travel over the years.