Timeless - NBC's "Hard SF" & "Historical" TT Series

[Cli-Fi]

Did you watch "Alias?" They did a complete 180 on who the good guys were, actually more than once.

I for one who hate a "lizard people" scenario.

I never watched Alias, but always heard good things. During that time, I was looking for new show, and then I discovered the X-Files after much research. Yeah, I was 6 when the X-Files came on at first. So that's why I didn't watch it when it was on TV.

 

[ctg]

If our theories turn out to be true and it turns into a conspiracy show, X-Files need to be crossed over with it.

Well, cross-overs rarely happen but it's possible. Nobody knows that world events has been altered and historical figures traumatised if not dead after our heros has paid a visit. But who says Fox Mulder could not have a theory in this?

Seriously how many historical events they are going to put in the next show and when comes to a point when they do something completely irreversible? If you have a TT coming from outside the event show, they might travel up and down objects history, seeing things like a tourist and if one of the events cockup their "holiday" they might come looking. At the moment trope demands that the TT is from Earth.

Thing with the Timeless is that Rittenhouse invented Time-Travel before it became a though in HR Wells mind. Supposedly hundreds of years before they even began fiddling with the lifeboat technology.

 

[Cli-Fi]

Well, cross-overs rarely happen but it's possible. Nobody knows that world events has been altered and historical figures traumatised if not dead after our heros has paid a visit. But who says Fox Mulder could not have a theory in this?

Seriously how many historical events they are going to put in the next show and when comes to a point when they do something completely irreversible? If you have a TT coming from outside the event show, they might travel up and down objects history, seeing things like a tourist and if one of the events cockup their "holiday" they might come looking. At the moment trope demands that the TT is from Earth.

Thing with the Timeless is that Rittenhouse invented Time-Travel before it became a though in HR Wells mind. Supposedly hundreds of years before they even began fiddling with the lifeboat technology.

Haha it's funny you mention HG Wells time machine. In research, as far as I can tell, that is just about the only standard in Time Travel fiction. HG Wells time machine was the first one. Many medias have mentioned HG Wells and his time machine if they do time travel too. In my WIP, he actually created it in real life too.

The funny thing is though, Mulder wouldn't want to help Lucy and the time team. He would want to help Flynn.

 

[ctg]

When you study the TT theory and supposed travellers, you come to point where some of things goes really mythical and you see two hypothesis. One, Travellers are from a parallel world and are here to observe the events. Two, they are from another world and they travel through the time-stream to observe and manipulate the events.

Both of those hypothesis are firmly wrapped in tinfoil and it's very likely that they get ridiculed. Which is kind of sad, because when you look at the Travellers we have so very little information on actual events. In Timeless world around 150 knows about the altered events and if one of those leak, it should almost automatically mean that these are investigated by a large number of people and most possibly, talked about in the conspiracy related sites. Including few dedicated ones.

Still that isn't even a possibility even though Flynn and companions spent large amount of time outside the controlled environment. Even during the Events people could have noticed some things being alternated as often the time-travelling devices are left in the spots that you classically find from the illustrations of UFO literature. The ball and its tripod like prints are in fact classical descriptions.

If you'll turn whole thing ninety degrees and assume that the TT came from the sky then you can assume that same Traveller could have used the device to cross distances between the solar systems. All they would have needed is the device. Time will flow around out and allows Travellers to travel in a bubble where time is kind of stagnant. You would age in there as normal, but the device itself would allow TTing in the target gravity wells pretty freely. Taken ofcourse that the device doesn't encounter singularities, because who knows what really happens when super massive gravity generator distorts norms and laws that make the TT possible.

All I'm saying that the producers have a great freedom to move around and still be within the plausible limits of current ideas around the Time-Travel. Timeless hasn't explained how the device is actually being able to change location and not being anchored to a singular fixed location. It just happens.

 

[Cli-Fi]

All I'm saying that the producers have a great freedom to move around and still be within the plausible limits of current ideas around the Time-Travel. Timeless hasn't explained how the device is actually being able to change location and not being anchored to a singular fixed location. It just happens.

Yeah, if you read my WIP, you would see that things are starting to get heated between the people who believe in either reality. It's like a religion really. That there are multiple points in time in which you can never ever ever impact with time travel no matter how hard you try (Wyatt's wife) or that there is this one constant point in time that cannot be altered. Timeless hasn't really touched upon that theory as of yet (maybe lucy turning to go help flynn), but if allowed to continue I'm sure they will revist Flynn's past and show why and how he stole the time machine. Eventually leading us to the inner workings of Rittenhouse and why they have it. The funny thing is with my WIP, belief in the multiple constant theory is quietly being accepted by my main character and his cronies and this new belief system causes much controversy within the Time Travel community there.

Timeless doesn't run that deep though so any leaving out of how the time machine actually works could just be an after thought. I had that same problem myself. I could have gone the hard science route in my novel, but if we knew how the time machine operated that would just take away the mystery and the conflict. That's why I don't think time travel fiction needs to go into much detail, about how it all works. Doctor who has timey-whimey-stuff. My time machines are basically apple products, (they just work). The time machine in back to the future had the flux capacitor and timeless has Rufus. That's enough for mainstream audiences anyway.

 

[Dave]

Timeless hasn't explained how the device is actually being able to change location and not being anchored to a singular fixed location. It just happens.

In reality, it would be problematic to anchor any time machine to a fixed point on an Earth spinning around its axis, orbiting the Sun, which is itself circling the centre of the Milky Way, which is also expanding away from the centre of the Universe. Time Travel is fantasy, and the convention is that HG Wells machine was anchored in his front room, while Doctor Who's TARDIS moves in space and in time. If you have to choose between them, the "being able to move" choice is the more believable.

 

[Cli-Fi]

the "being able to move" choice is the more believable.

Don't tell that to the characters in my WIP. It would be blaspheme!

 

[Ursa major]

In Timeless world around 150 knows about the altered events and if one of those leak, it should almost automatically mean that these are investigated by a large number of people and most possibly, talked about in the conspiracy related sites. Including few dedicated ones.

Do that number of people really know about the altered events, as opposed to knowing that people can be sent back in time? They could only know about history being altered if they were told.

I don't think anyone who has to know what has happened -- the time travellers and a handful of others (including Lucy's father and mother) -- is encouraged to talk about any of it... if for no other reason than Lucy sister isn't going to be the only person who might cease to exist. Everyone is at risk of disappearing, including all those working at the site. Some of them, if they knew the risk, might think that preserving their own, or their family's, existence would make it worth their while sabotaging the project, so it is best that they do not know.

 

[Cli-Fi]

Do that number of people really know about the altered events, as opposed to knowing that people can be sent back in time? They could only know about history being altered if they were told.

I don't think anyone who has to know what has happened -- the time travellers and a handful of others (including Lucy's father and mother) -- is encouraged to talk about any of it... if for no other reason than Lucy sister isn't going to be the only person who might cease to exist. Everyone is at risk of disappearing, including all those working at the site. Some of them, if they knew the risk, might think that preserving their own, or their family's, existence would make it worth their while sabotaging the project, so it is best that they do not know.

The problem with this deep thinking about the show, are the relationships. Timeless needs Wyatt and Lucy together and now Rufus and Jiya. So no, not everyone is at risk. It's mostly due to the needs of the show and not in any practical sense, because you wouldn't really be able to maintain any relationships outside the time team let alone know what happened to your friends yesterday in a real world time travel scenario without some type of time travel guidelines of which hasn't been established, as far as I can tell. Jiya doesn't time travel, so she really isn't even protected by that standard and the one time she did, she got sick. She can die/disappear at any time, but she hasn't yet so that Rufus can get with her.

Same goes with Agent Christopher and Connor Mason. They shouldn't always be the same people, every time the time team comes back and yet in most respects they are. On that same note, Agent Christopher seems to be the only person who actually has a life. Rufus, Jiya, Wyatt, or Connor have never complained about any drastic changes in their lives since they started.

 

[Ursa major]

I think you're confusing who is, or isn't, at risk in the context of the TV show and who might be at risk if the events were happening in the real world. (You're also assuming -- perhaps correctly, perhaps not -- that every changed event in the past would cut a wide swathe through the population of the US, but that's an entirely different issue.)

I was talking about what threats a real world organisation running a time travel project (one involved in altering history**) might consider guarding against. I strongly believe that it would keep information about its activities, and the effects of its activities, as locked down as it could, in order to minimise problems amongst its workforce (who might react in the way I suggested) and from anyone who both felt threatened and could do something about it (such as the government).

It isn't as if there's any other way to find out if something odd was happening, such as people disappearing, or appearing out of nowhere: no-one, other than those in the time machines, can tell when something has changed. Even the time travellers only find out by comparing their (unaffected) memories with the reality of the world to which they return.

So I stand by my original comment: as few people as possible would be allowed to know what was really going on, as doing so reduces all sorts of risks , including the one I mentioned (an employee deciding that it would be better for everyone (including themselves) if time travelling died a quick death).


As for the TV show characters.... If they lived in the real world, and Rittenhouse's effort are directed specifically at events in North America (as opposed to Flynn's activities, which are rather less predictable), certain of them might not be at very high risk at all. Connor Mason is British and so is unlikely to be affected by the changes being planned by Rittenhouse (not to mention that Rittenhouse -- and Flynn -- would be rather keen that he didn't cease to exist). It's also quite likely, though not guaranteed, that Jiya is a "second generation" American, who may, therefore, be at reduced risk. And in the show, Jiya's "visions" are likely to be important, so her character will likely persist for most of season two, if only because of Chekhov's Gun.


** - Why else is Rittenhouse funding the project if not to alter history to its own benefit?

 

[Dave]

** - Why else is Rittenhouse funding the project if not to alter history to its own benefit?

This question must necessarily be what will drive the show in the next Season. I would point out only that "own benefit" does not necessarily mean an increase in wealth, power or influence. Since the Rittenhouse members we have met have all been wealthy, powerful and influential this is an easy assumption to make. However, they could be doing it for purely ideological reasons in order to make the world a better place for everyone. Clearly, it will not be a better place for all the people who no longer exist, but whether or not they are right is really a question of politics, and grey rather than black and white. As @ctg mentioned, I could see the writers turning everything ninety degrees and getting us to show-the-love for Rittenhouse as a much better way to continue. Maybe our "prime" original timeline (without any TT messing about) saw some terrible end-of-the-world scenario or apocalypse which they have been working towards avoiding for the last few hundred years.

 

[ctg]

Slightly off-topic but I imagine this must be close to the conversations in the writers room, where everyone gets so passionate about the topic. Maybe we'll have to wait and see what they do with this series, before we speculate any further. It's still at least four months, before we see an opening for the season season.

 

[Ursa major]

However, they could be doing it for purely ideological reasons in order to make the world a better place for everyone.

There's a quote, one which I can't recall, about how people who do oppressive things "for the best of intentions" are far more dangerous, and difficult to oppose, than those who do it for other reasons (such as greed).

After all, making a person rich is of primary interest to them, their family, their coterie and those who want, or believe they'll get, a share of the riches, but few others; call it "saving the world", or something similar, and you'll get even those who suspect that they might end up being oppressed (as it's "a sacrifice for the cause") jumping on the bandwagon.

Obviously, Rittenhouse isn't so confident that its "saving the world" agenda would be popular, hence its secret nature, but it isn't as if we're unfamiliar with "popular fronts" of various sorts whose membership remains low as their vision of "saving the world" is unattractive to most... at which point you can get the sort of ideological cult where only the inner circle gets to see the "whole truth".

At which point, Lucy's part in Timeless becomes even more crucial: she's expected to join her parents in what might be one of the inner circles of Rittenhouse (though not the innermost one; otherwise her grandfather would have told her the Rittenhouse secret**).


** - While the show met the (probably) original Rittenhouse leader, who did say what his vision was, can we be at all sure that he was being as frank as he could have been, given that he was talking to people obviously not on his side? (And can we be confident that the vision has remained unchanged through the centuries? I think not: given his age, Rittenhouse Jnr was unlikely to have been in possession of his father's full vision of a Rittenhouse future when he escaped from Flynn.)

 

[Cli-Fi]

Maybe our "prime" original timeline (without any TT messing about) saw some terrible end-of-the-world scenario or apocalypse which they have been working towards avoiding for the last few hundred years.

@Dave, you just hit upon the reason for Jiya's dream/flash forward!

Spoiler

The smoldering Golden Gate bridge is a bad omen, no?

 

[Cli-Fi]

As for the TV show characters.... If they lived in the real world, and Rittenhouse's effort are directed specifically at events in North America (as opposed to Flynn's activities, which are rather less predictable), certain of them might not be at very high risk at all. Connor Mason is British and so is unlikely to be affected by the changes being planned by Rittenhouse (not to mention that Rittenhouse -- and Flynn -- would be rather keen that he didn't cease to exist). It's also quite likely, though not guaranteed, that Jiya is a "second generation" American, who may, therefore, be at reduced risk. And in the show, Jiya's "visions" are likely to be important, so her character will likely persist for most of season two, if only because of Chekhov's Gun.

If we are to assume that the butterfly effect is what happens when one time travels in the real world, then the changes are not solely limited to America. We do not live in a bubble here, despite what our polarized populace seems to want. That being the theory that one change in the timeline can drastically change everything. EG Sliders scenarios.

The sliders often went to an alternative world and asked WTF happened. Looked it up in the history books, Oh, JFK survived until old age and lived through two terms in office. Made the world an entirely different place.

But timeless seems to be taking the opposite approach to the butterfly effect, that if you change something in the timeline nothing much is affected.

 

[Ursa major]

As no-one really knows how large the impact of the Butterfly Effect would be "on average", I think we (including the Timeless show runners) are perfectly entitled to believe that its effect may often be very limited (while at other times devastating, as possibly represented in Jiya's "vision"**). Similarly, we'd be perfectly entitled to believe just about any interference could be devastating to lots of people (and produce a story based on that), but that would be based on very little but speculation.

As regards the world-wide effects of someone dying in the US, I chose my examples carefully. It's hard to imagine someone (or their immediate descendants) on the Indian subcontinent, or a UK colony in the West Indies, ceasing to exist because, say, Al Capone*** was shot rather than dying in Florida from a heart attack. Down the line, Rittenhouse may have much larger changes in mind, with much greater consequences (intended or otherwise), but we've not (as far as we know) seen any Rittenhouse-arranged editing of the past, only Flynn's more targeted approach, one with a rather limited aim.


By the way, Sliders is not really a good show with which to critique Timeless. While the headline change in the episode you mention was JFK's survival, there is no reason to suppose that this was the sole difference between that world and ours. What they saw was might have been affected by those other, unseen, changes just as much as JFK's extended life. In Timeless, very specific changes are being attempted; sometimes they are thwarted, but with other changes resulting from that. That's a very different scenario.


** - Which could, though, be due to the actual act of travelling through time rather than what the time travellers do when they're in the past.

*** - When a crime boss is killed, or taken out of the picture, the result is rarely that no-one with criminal intent takes advantage of the situation. If evolution has told us anything, ecological niches tend to get filled and nature doesn't care what sort of organism fills them. Human beings do the same... albeit rather faster (but for shorter durations) than species.

 

[Cli-Fi]

As regards the world-wide effects of someone dying in the US, I chose my examples carefully. It's hard to imagine someone (or their immediate descendants) on the Indian subcontinent, or a UK colony in the West Indies, ceasing to exist because, say, Al Capone*** was shot rather than dying in Florida from a heart attack. Down the line, Rittenhouse may have much larger changes in mind, with much greater consequences (intended or otherwise), but we've not (as far as we know) seen any Rittenhouse-arranged editing of the past, only Flynn's more targeted approach, one with a rather limited aim.

The problem I have with that are the Lincoln Episode and the lindbergh Episode. If someone else shot Lincoln I think a lot of things could have changed throughout American History, likely with Lindbergh if he tried to take credit for something no pictures can prove. It could have changed the entire scope of the aviation industry as we know it. Those are a lot of changes in the timeline, and I think timeless doesn't portray those affects properly and their theories why are a bit wonky, but still fun to think about.

 

[Parson]

There is always the theory that time is like a vast pond and that the ripples from an even fade after time leaving most everything unchanged. (I cannot for the life of me remember the book that took that pattern as its guide, but it makes as much sense as any other.)

 

[Cli-Fi]

Timeless cancelled by NBC. All industry analysts shocked: ‘Timeless’ Canceled By NBC After One Season

 

[Ursa major]

What a shame.