Paid Writing Workshops/Courses/Critique or Writing Groups (or: Critique Sites are a Disappointment)

[sozme]

So I have tried some of the major sites out there... i.e. Critique Circle, Scribophile, OnlineWritingWorkshop. So far, I think the best critiques come from OWW (not too surprising since its genre-oriented and a pay-for site). Problem is, it takes forever (sometimes several weeks) to get those critiques.

The other 2 (Scribophile and CC) are bad for multiple reasons. First, the writers there are generally novice, which is perfectly fine EXCEPT that a.) the critiques from new writers are often quite useless and b.) having to critique the writing there is a huge chore, with most submissions essentially looking for the critiquer to proof-read their work and make grammatical/major structure changes for them. Even if you do happen across someone who knows what they are talking about, they will often give you a half-assed critique because they are only interested in rapidly accumulating points/karma/whatever currency so they can submit their own work.

Anyway, what is your opinion on these different critique sites? (you don't have to bash any specific site, just asking for your general opinion on this resource).

Do you think paid workshops or courses would be more beneficial and why?
I guess the reason for this thread ultimately is to see what you all think about paid workshops vs. these online critique websites. My hope is that because these courses/workshops cost so much money, you are really only going to get the people who are serious about writing and willing to put in the time on their critiques AND their submissions (so that critiquing their work isn't pure torture).

The only example I can think of here are the Writer's Digest courses. They are somewhere in the range of $700-1000, and seem to be in the format of an online classroom setting. Do you know of any others?

 

[Brian G Turner]

Personally, I get a lot from Critiques here at chrons. Better still, because I know something about the different members, I can place what they say into context. Also, because a lot of replies are likely, there are all sorts of different points and angles people can provide.

Usually when I've paid out money it's for editing samples - ie, first 3 chapters. Like any paid service, the results can really vary. By keeping the sample limited, I didn't burn too much if the editor was totally unsuitable, while allowing me to try different people.

I tried one of the smaller Writer's Digest University courses, but didn't think I really got me money's worth:
Review: Writer's Digest University

Ultimately, I think it comes down to this: test out a few avenues for feedback, find out what works best, then stick with it.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

My writing group, and a couple of other betas I swap work with, are the backbone of my critting. Better than anything else on a regular basis - dedicated, high standard and committed.

I've also used paid editorial services which are great but for a different time and place - after the writing group have mauled them when I'm getting close to the final section.

I find the crits board here probably the best I've used regularly. It's a small enough crit circle to get to know who to listen to, and everyone is specialist in sff.

 

[Kerrybuchanan]

Pretty much what Jo said. I tried a couple of the online crit groups and found they didn't meet my needs at all. I was more than happy to crit in return, but I realised quite early on that it helps if the people exchanging crits are both similar levels, and invested in each other. I don't feel I crit as well for some complete stranger as I do for someone I've built up a relationship with, and developed a feel for how much they can take (aka how sensitive their feelings are!).

I also tried a paid-for writing course in person, which was fun and I don't regret the money spent (it didn't break the bank ). It filled in many of my grammar and punctuation gaps, which was useful, but that was really all.

Our writing group is my first-line go-to for quality, in-depth critique, but Chrons is also brilliant and I do plan to come back on here for crits again once my life steadies up a bit and gives me time to write again. I also beta read for a couple of other people, building up credit for when my novel reaches that stage (winks at a couple of Chronners -- you know who you are....). In fact, Chrons is great for making new writing friends you can trust and know well enough to ask for help. That sort of relationship takes time to build.

I was very luck indeed: I met Jo on another crit site and she took me under her wing early on, pointing me in this direction and giving me the gentlest of shoves in the right direction. I've never looked back.

 

[Gonk the Insane]

Anyway, what is your opinion on these different critique sites?

I used one, YouWriteOn, before I joined Chrons. I was at a stage where I'd been writing for fun for years, but had accidentally written a novel that was pretty fair - good enough that seriously enthusiastic feedback from a friend made me look at the whole thing and what I wanted from it. I started taking things a bit more seriously around then, and started learning the craft (my fear had been if I started reading books the whole thing would become less fun, and instead become another form of work - weird, perhaps, but you've seen my handle, right?). The way the site worked was you'd submit a sample, others would review and rate it, and you'd review a number of other samples. The best ratings each month might get looked over by an industry professional. It was a free site (I think it still is) and the opportunity for professional feedback for free sounded great. In principle, it was a great idea...

The reality was somewhat different. Some reviews were useful, others were much like the poorest Amazon ones ("I didn't like the character's name, so I'm giving it one star" kind of thing). Others still showed that reviewers hadn't taken the thing as seriously as I had - there was what even then I recognised as bad advice, alongside reviews that demonstrated they hadn't really read the review piece. In addition, there was a weird "you give me a great review I'll return the favour" kind of thing, with cliques and stuff a-happening. I think this might be common to many such unpaid (and perhaps paid) critique sites, to some extent at least.

The single greatest thing I did, however, was joining Chrons and eventually taking the plunge and putting something up for critique. Depending on how good you really are, it can be difficult at first (certainly was for me), but it's invaluable. We are lucky to get honest feedback from talented and experienced writers, and although it was hard learning I wasn't as awesome at writing as I thought I was, the feedback comes from a place of respect and encouragement and I'm a better writer for it. Being told you're great is nice to hear, but being given the tools to become great is far, far better in my view.

I've never looked back.

 

[Overread]

My experiences come more from learning photography than writing and thus I can't comment on any specific writing critique sites or systems. However my views are:

1) Good critique is hard to find in any subject. As some have found here its not a simple thing; you get cliques; you get back scratchers; you get beginners who might write a lot but who don't really know much; you get intermediates who know the "rules" but only the most common and thus can't show much adaptability to what they read (its got to be oxford dictionary perfect or its wrong).
And then each of us wanting critique wants something a little different so what works for one might not work for another. In the end critique seeking is a bit of a personal journey as you have to find out what works for you and for your writing.

2) Seeking critique begins by learning to give critique.
This might sound like I'm saying you've got to "pay" for critique by critiquing others; but in truth its not quite like that
What I mean here is that in order to be able to go through the process of seeking out critique you've first got to learn to critique yourself. Most find this easier to work on others work where errors can often be easier to spot than in our own creations (at first). This is all part and parcel of learning what to look for in critique and to also gain experience in commenting and critically evaluating another's work - in this case writing.

This arms you with a couple of important skills
a) An increased ability to self critique your own work. This allows you to start to sift the critique replies you get and evaluate the critique you receive.
b) It allows you to start to present your segments for critique with more thought than just throwing out a paragraph or chapter. Now you can pick the weaker parts or the more difficult.
c) It allows you to present your own thoughts on what you've written upfront; sometimes this helps get the good writers out of the woodwork and into commenting. Many often want to see dedication and understanding and respect to the craft from new faces before they'll spend time reading, evaluating and commenting. Because good critique takes time so anything you can present up-front in your own work to show that you're already self evaluating and that you're already receptive to further critical evaluation is going to encourage others to comment.
d) It gives you an increased ability to step back from your own work. To many here this might be something you can do already, but often its a skill people have to learn so that they are not so highly defensive or hostile to comments that they get. It's perfectly find to debate and argue your point and you don't have to agree with all critique comments, but there's a style and tone to writing that shows that you respect the others input and are simply looking to either gain additional insight into their viewpoint or to argue a counterpoint to theirs.

 

[Dan Jones]

I'd echo pretty much what everybody has said. I've only ever used Chrons when I've required a critique, and wouldn't ever pay for a critique.

The best critiques come from a place of mutual trust, and people will quickly develop relationships with the other people who "grok" their work, or their personality, or both, and can exchange honest, constructive critiques that build skills and confidence. And while I tend to look out for certain people's comments, now and then somebody new / different comes along with a real pearler of a comment that turns on the light bulb in my head. Which is why Chrons is great.

I've never used a writing group; I've only ever written alone (*gets out violin*), although somebody has kindly offered to act as a Lone Ranger sounding board for my next project, so I'll get to see how that chapter-by-chapter approach works.

 

[Juliana]

I've had a couple of face-to-face paid critiques with agents at a writing conference, which to be honest were a bit useless. And I had another face-to-face paid critique with a different agent at an agent/editor event which was excellent – she went round the table critiquing everyone's first pages and I learned a lot just from watching how she looked at everyone's work (let alone my own). So my take is that definitely critique sessions with pros can be worth it, but do your research on what the agent or editor is like.

Besides that, my peer critique experiences are the same as many of the above answers – Chrons critiques and my two writing groups, as well as a couple of wonderful beta readers.

The best critiques come from a place of mutual trust, and people will quickly develop relationships with the other people who "grok" their work, or their personality, or both, and can exchange honest, constructive critiques that build skills and confidence.

This ^

 

[Coast]

I'll also add that for myself, I've been learning a lot from other folk's crits as well. Especially when you get a couple of rounds of feedback, rework, feedback.

So, I'm not sure if other critique sites/services allow anything like this, but I definitely see that as a strength here.

 

[sozme]

Great replies as always... thank you.

How are you all finding beta readers and writing groups?

 

[Jo Zebedee]

Great replies as always... thank you.

How are you all finding beta readers and writing groups?

From gettimg to know people here.

 

[sozme]

From gettimg to know people here.

Been here for 3 years... never been asked to beta read for anyone :/

 

[Overread]

sozme you've only 135 posts or there abouts. Spread over 3 years that means you've likely not been active enough during that period for any extended period of time for most people to "notice" you as such. Granted if you have those 135 posts in a few weeks/months all bunched up (ergo member for ages but said very little/not active) then that would even things out; but in general to be noticed on a site you've got to be involved - same as any community really.

People have to "know" you from chats and what you do around the site to take notice.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

Been here for 3 years... never been asked to beta read for anyone :/

But did you ever reach out and ask someone if they'd like you to read it? Or message them to give feedback?

 

[Zebra Wizard]

I've been looking for a writing group but I'm worried about many of the things you pointed out. Because you ideally want someone at or beyond your skill level to spot things you do not know. Also their writing speed may differ to yours too which could be a problem.

I do like having alpha readers to help me stay on track, keeping my story professional and original and stay away from fan-fic/self-indulgement land.

 

[sozme]

But did you ever reach out and ask someone if they'd like you to read it? Or message them to give feedback?

No ;/

 

[sozme]

People have to "know" you from chats and what you do around the site to take notice.

What chats? Is there a chat room or something I am missing?

 

[The Judge]

Been here for 3 years... never been asked to beta read for anyone :/

How many in-depth critiques or book reviews have you given in those 3 years to show off your beta-reading credentials? Occasionally members put up posts asking for beta-readers; I don't know if you've seen them, but if you have, how many times have you volunteered?

If you want to be asked to beta-read -- and all credit to you for wanting to help -- then you do need to show both that it's something you can do well, and that you are willing to do it. You could be the best critiquer on the boards, and the most helpful of people, but if the other members don't see much of you or aren't sure what you can do, then you're not likely to be first in their minds when they want help.

I've found being part of a writing group invaluable, but it didn't arise overnight, nor by chance -- I gave crits here, I interacted with people, I joined in threads in GWD and showed I knew what I was talking about in relation to grammar and character development, even if I fell short in things like POV. I got to know people, and things moved on from there.

So if you want a writing group, start getting to know the other members. There are no chat rooms, only the forums you see, but show yourself in other threads round and about the writing forums.

 

[Overread]

What chats? Is there a chat room or something I am missing?

By chats I mean interacting and chatting with people in the forums on threads. Talking in book threads about what you do and don't like - giving critique - chatting about books or films you like - playing around in the "lounge" sections etc... Ergo being part of the active community itself.

In general my experiences are that forum communities are just like real world ones; people are more willing to put effort into helping those who themselves are keen members of the community itself. Showing yourself well also counts a lot of course as does being outgoing and willing to put your effort into both your own craft and skill and into helping others where you can.


Heck giving critique to others can be as much a part of your own personal development as getting feedback from others. Again we are back to that learning curve in that in order to help you improve your own skill you can work on improving your own analytical skill with regard to your own and others works ( reaching a point where you'd critique your own just as if you'd critique or view anothers work).

 

[Tirellan]

What chats? Is there a chat room or something I am missing?

Where are you physically based?