Joining a Writing Group?

Both of them had the problem that I'm the only person who does sci fi and fantasy. Everyone else tends to do slice of life or memoir style pieces. While it's true that good writing is good writing, sci fi and fantasy have their own tropes and conventions you can't always get away from. A Ford Transit doesn't require much explanation - a Torbus Skylander does.
This is a major point. Good sci fi writing is a combination of good writing and good sci fi, and just as many writers aren't fans of sci fi, many sci fi fans aren't fans of good writing. There is an awful lot of what used to be called "pulp" in the blood of sci fi fans.

I don't think even fantasy and SF writers cross over very well. It's like why gay men and lesbians don't party much together.
 
I don't think even fantasy and SF writers cross over very well. It's like why gay men and lesbians don't party much together.

I just spat my tea out laughing.

Sadly I agree, because I love pulp.
 
Even in the worst Writing Group there may be hidden benefits. In my local group I have found a kindred spirit. We meet regularly, critique each other's writing and encourage each other. (The last two don't work in the group!)
Yes, it's well worth developing trustworthy betas etc. Jane's points are useful, but ultimately it's a personal decision.
 
I don't think even fantasy and SF writers cross over very well. It's like why gay men and lesbians don't party much together.

Good grief. Did I really read that right? How do you know they don't party together? How does anyone know what anyone does?

As to the other point. Head-hits-desk-loudly. I write both. I read both. Nearly every genre reader I know reads both. I met 12 genre writers last night - long story - and many wrote both and all knew about both. Tell Lois McMaster Bujold, C J Cherryth, and Grrm Martin (and all the others) that they don't cross over very well and I think they'd tell you they did it exceptionally well.
 
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Good grief. Did I really read that right? How do you know they don't party together? How does anyone know what anyone does?

As to the other point. Head-hits-desk-loudly. I write both. I read both. Nearly every genre reader I know reads both. I met 12 genre writers last night - long story - and many wrote both and all knew about both. Tell Lois McMaster Bujold, C J Cherryth, and Grrm Martin (and all the others) that they don't cross over very well and I think they'd tell you they did it exceptionally well.
This wasn't some sort of attack on gays, lesbians or SFF writers. But the fact that we cluster fantasy with science fiction due to some of their similarities, at the end of the day they are also quite opposite.

And what I was getting at by saying so is that the specific concerns, concepts and language familiar to SF do not apply to fantasy, or vice versa. I would be more comfortable having a mystery-only writer beta my SF stories than a fantasy-only writer. The devil is in the details.
 
This wasn't some sort of attack on gays, lesbians or SFF writers. But the fact that we cluster fantasy with science fiction due to some of their similarities, at the end of the day they are also quite opposite.

And what I was getting at by saying so is that the specific concerns, concepts and language familiar to SF do not apply to fantasy, or vice versa. I would be more comfortable having a mystery-only writer beta my SF stories than a fantasy-only writer. The devil is in the details.

Would you make the same statement about an impotent man and a so-called sexy woman? Or vice versa? Or a person who interacts poorly with others - of either sex? Or in any other context? It was a generalisation that does much damage - not least in failing to see the spectrum within a convenient label of two.

As to the other. I deliver training courses to spec writers. Both genres worldbuild. Both genres require many of the same disciplines with different names. They are more close to write - and critique - than most other genres. More importantly writers and readers regularly read both and know the conventions of each.

The differences are there, sure, but so are the similarities.
 
Would you make the same statement about an impotent man and a so-called sexy woman? Or vice versa? Or a person who interacts poorly with others - of either sex? Or in any other context? It was a generalisation that does much damage - not least in failing to see the spectrum within a convenient label of two.
I'm failing to see how your comparisons of negative and positive opposites apply to gays and lesbians. Which one is the "impotent man" in your view?

I was making a statement about how a single Venn diagram can't tell the whole story. While both gays and lesbians are "homosexuals", that doesn't mean that they ought to be regarded as more alike than different. Generally, they do socialize separately when they socialize by sexual orientation, with separate gay bars and lesbian bars. And that's perfectly alright.

The point being, there are plenty of polar SF and fantasy people, and they don't cross over well - especially in the 'harder' extremes of the genre. And I'm expressing this as someone who has experienced odd and confused notes from fantasy people reviewing SF. If you don't think it is a problem, that's okay. I've just had different experiences.
 
I think we are way off topic and the discussion is becoming crass. Back to discussion of the topic, please.
Point taken - and my apologies if I went too far. My rather crude second post was about not making analogies about any people rather than a comparison to the previous analogy.

Never post just as heading to bed :)
 
That you need to either like, or write the genre you are critiquing for another writer, I feel is a bit of a misnomer.

Whereas this can perhaps give you an insight into what the writer's intentions are or the nature of their world building, it can be a hindrance.

Let me try to explain what I mean.

To begin with all authors world build. By that I mean they create the world in which their characters inhabit. It might be just a suburban street in January 2017, London in 1900, Mars in 2359, or a world where dragons rule, but they create the setting for their story. This setting has to be logical within the perimeters that the author creates for the story. If using a real historical time period it has to sound, look and feel right to the reader. If extrapolating from a time period, say, roman, for a fantasy novel it has to fit, same for a SF novel using abstract theory and technology. The author has to ring fence his creation and make is plausible and more importantly convey this to a reader. This is where a lot of writers starting out tend to fall down. If you can't get over the nuances of your world to the average reader, then you have hamstrung your work at the get go. You need to show the reader your world, without drowning your prose with information. Word choice, images, emotional response to the world by your characters, tone and texture all play a part. This is one of the elements you should show and expect from a critique. Is my world clear, does it make sense within the framework? If someone has given a critique and has mentioned elements that confuse them, or don't quite feel right, please don't dismiss the critique as the reader not understanding your work. Look again at the work, try and see what they are seeing. You might find things are not as clear as you believe them to be.

I often critique work that is in other genres. (especially at my face to face group) Just because I don't read those genres for my own pleasure does not mean I can see plot holes, character errors, flow, tone and errors in sentence construction, info dumping etc, etc. I have found that looking at others work, no matter the genre, does improve my own. Limiting myself to the genre I write in is a hindrance and can be self-limiting. I don't just want to appeal to genre readers with my work, I want others, who do not normally read the genre, to take a chance, so my writing has to be a strong as it can be. Having people that write in other genres critique the work does help.

I have over the past two years worked with editors from very different backgrounds with regards to my published novels, each has seen things I haven't, each has offered insights to to plot, characters, and world building. I certainly haven't dismissed their suggestions, same as I haven't done with anyone that has critiqued my work. I look at all the comments and try and understand why the remarks have been made.

To be blinkered by your genre is not doing your work justice, you need to be open to all genres to create the story you want too, as no genre is completely separate from another, all have small elements of the others, all rely on creating believable characters in a believable situation within the framework the author has created for the story.

As regards critiquing work; you need to have an open mind from the first word. Do not begin to re-write, or alter the world the author has created to suit what you believe it should be. Look at plot, characters, information on the world, flow, tone, pace continuity, sentence construction and grammar. The story might not be to your taste, but you can see what works to move the story forward and what doesn't.

This is why a good critique group/beta readers who have an interest in a number of genres is a must.

(Disclaimer: not getting at anyone, just putting my thoughts on the subject down, and is the longest post I have made for a number of years :) )
 
That you need to either like, or write the genre you are critiquing for another writer, I feel is a bit of a misnomer.

Whereas this can perhaps give you an insight into what the writer's intentions are or the nature of their world building, it can be a hindrance.

I largely agree, but I would like to add that whether or not it's a hindrance is a personal thing. When I've mentioned fantasy at a writer's group, most of the people have been as supportive as they have of any other work, but from other people I have caught a bit of eye rolling and one did actually say she doesn't like fantasy because books of that genre "describe every blade of grass". 'Cause you know... Every fantasy author is Tolkien, or wants to be. Now while I might trust those people to critique characters or the more everyday types of world building, I doubt I'd be able to run ideas for how magic could work without the whole thing being dismissed as silly.
 
I've joined a group which is more about developing skills rather than supporting each other. So far this has been useful as some of the tasks have forced me to write outside of the fantasy genre. Also I've had to perform readings of my work which, as a bit of an introvert, I've found extremely embarrassing but also perversely helpful.

Other than that there's only two groups in my area. One that has exorbitant fees for meetings and membership, while the second likes to meet in the day when I'm at work. Neither any good.

As such I'm stuck (don't mean that in a negative way) with online. My issue is that I find it awkward to critique. I can't count the times I've started a reply for the Critiques section only to cancel the post. This is partly because I don't feel qualified to add my thoughts and partly due to the fact that I find it difficult to say anything negative, even if it is constructive. Due to this I don't put anything up to critique anymore because it would not be fair.
 
My issue is that I find it awkward to critique. I can't count the times I've started a reply for the Critiques section only to cancel the post. This is partly because I don't feel qualified to add my thoughts and partly due to the fact that I find it difficult to say anything negative, even if it is constructive. Due to this I don't put anything up to critique anymore because it would not be fair.
You're qualified enough if you read and think and can put two words together, all of which you can do. If you don't like saying anything negative, then don't -- leave that to snarky curmudgeons like me! As long as you say what you really believe, and you're not uttering meaningless praise simply to be pleasant or because you feel sorry for the author, then any comment is valuable. So get back into Critiques! You'll be welcomed as both critiquer and critiquee.
 
I've joined a group which is more about developing skills rather than supporting each other. Also I've had to perform readings of my work which, as a bit of an introvert, I've found extremely embarrassing but also perversely helpful.

It is. Reading your work aloud, whether in public or alone, highlights more mistakes – of all types – than you see when scanning for the blighters. But everyone needs support, encouragement and chocolate cake. All of which can be found on Chrons.
 
You're qualified enough if you read and think and can put two words together, all of which you can do. If you don't like saying anything negative, then don't -- leave that to snarky curmudgeons like me! As long as you say what you really believe, and you're not uttering meaningless praise simply to be pleasant or because you feel sorry for the author, then any comment is valuable. So get back into Critiques! You'll be welcomed as both critiquer and critiquee.

Cheers Judge, although my wife would argue about the 'think and words together' part.

Also, having reread post it looks like I got off topic.

What I wanted to end up saying was if you get chance to join one, go for it. It can only prove beneficial in the long term.
 

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