Historical fallacies

[Danny McG]

during the battle of Agincourt it seems the longbow men didn't really wave two fingers at the French whilst loudly exhorting them to "make love in the distance"

 

[Piper]

In his the last voyage he reached the “mainland”.


But in geographic terms it is quite common that islands are considered part of the continent.


The best examples are probably in Oceania. Are the New Zealand isles part of Oceania? What about Tonga Islands? Or even Australia?


But if we stick to Europe… do we consider the British Islands part of what continent? I would say Europe.


The analogy for America is the same. The Caribbean Islands are a part of the American continent.

No he never reached the mainland. If I remember from the psych profile class I took on Mr. C, he had information about the Norse discoveries but he believed (as likely did the Norse) that the landmass they reached was a large island. Mr. C attempted to sail under the island that he knew was there. As an aside, I saw the "oatmeal" post with supposed quotes from C. While I honestly haven't examined his writings, I DO know that while he used some five or six versions of his name throughout his lifetime, he never referred to himself as "Columbus".

Another bugaboo that I have are the disease deaths of the native peoples. Was it very sad- YES. HOWEVER- the germ theory of disease isn't even postulated for another 250 years (and even then you're talking about elite scientists, not the every man on the street). These sailors, soldiers...etc simply had no concept that they were carrying disease to innocent people and likely would not even believe it, even if they were told. War, torture all manner of bad things- yes totally their responsibility, but the disease? That was tragic ignorance
"

 

[anno]

Is the elephant in the room Catherine the Great

 

[Ursa major]

Indeed. I haven't heard any stories about fishermen exploiting Newfoundland pre-Columbus

It may very well be cod history....

 

[Piper]

Is the elephant in the room Catherine the Great

Along with Katherine of Aragon who wasn't "MUCH" older than Henry

 

[Vladd67]

Along with Katherine of Aragon who wasn't "MUCH" older than Henry

True Catherine was only six years older than Henry.

 

[The Ace]

I live in a small town in Northern Ireland with a Very Big, famous as these things go, castle. Over here, lots of people (of the Unionist persuasion) revere William of Orange/William III/King Billy because he won the Battle of the Boyne and defeated the catholic King James (but not for that reason, and that's a whole other story). For that reason, lots of people wear orange sashes and bang Very Large drums, especially in July.

Anyhow, when he arrived in sunny Norn Iron to cause centuries of chaos he landed in my town. But my town had been pretty well destroyed by his general, Schomberg, and he took one look at the place, got on his white horse (there is quite a bit of historical doubt about the colour of the horse, too, but that's for another day) and rode up the road to Belfast. Without visiting our Very Large and Pretty Beaten Up by this stage castle.

Move forwards to now. Each year, my town records this historic event by reenacting the landing of King Billy. Now the council keep it pretty historically accurate (except for the white horse, and that King Billy isn't really short - though to their credit they put up a statue where he is really short (and had it bronzed in Dublin, which, as you can imagine, didn't go down well) and no one likes it because they either don't like him, or they don't like him depicted as he really was). And every year, as these sort of public events go, some people drink too much and get silly - and in this case, some of those drunk people decide they want to visit 'King Billy's castle'.

Cue what became the annual event of explaining it wasn't his castle, he never entered it, and no they couldn't get in for free. Or drunk...

#AlternativeTruthLive.

And you daren't mention that King Billy's army was armed trained and fed by the Pope (who was trying to put a spoke in Louis XIV's wheel).

 

[Tulius Hostilius]

No he never reached the mainland. If I remember from the psych profile class I took on Mr. C, he had information about the Norse discoveries but he believed (as likely did the Norse) that the landmass they reached was a large island. Mr. C attempted to sail under the island that he knew was there. As an aside, I saw the "oatmeal" post with supposed quotes from C. While I honestly haven't examined his writings, I DO know that while he used some five or six versions of his name throughout his lifetime, he never referred to himself as "Columbus".

Another bugaboo that I have are the disease deaths of the native peoples. Was it very sad- YES. HOWEVER- the germ theory of disease isn't even postulated for another 250 years (and even then you're talking about elite scientists, not the every man on the street). These sailors, soldiers...etc simply had no concept that they were carrying disease to innocent people and likely would not even believe it, even if they were told. War, torture all manner of bad things- yes totally their responsibility, but the disease? That was tragic ignorance
"

Sorry, jus saw this now.


Even if Wikipedia is not exactly an Academic site we can see the map of his voyages there:


And I must correct myself; it passed some years since I read about it; it was not in the 4th voyage, but in the 3rt and 4th voyages that he reached the mainland:

Christopher Columbus - Wikipedia


As for the information that he had from the Norsemen, the Irish, the Portuguese, or others about America is a speculation because we don’t have sources. One thing is for sure, with the Portuguese he learned something about sailing in the Atlantic, lived in Porto Santo (Madeira Archipelago); and sailed to Mina (Africa).


About his name there are too much thesis, many contradictory, the best still seems that he his from Genoa (or Liguria), even if the link long established between the Genoese Cristoforo Colon and the man that lived in Portugal and went to Castile, named Cristobal Colon, sometimes seems to tremble, and his signature “XPO FERENS” is also confusing.


But I agree with you the rude treatment to the Indians can be partially pointed to him, the question of deceases can’t.


The major primary sources that we have for him are mostly available online. Are some of his noted books, letters, the “Historia” written by his son Hernando:

Volume I

Historia del almirante Don Cristóbal Colón. Primer volumen / escrita por Don Fernando Colón... | Biblioteca Virtual Miguel de Cervantes

and Volume II

Historia del Almirante Don Cristóbal Colón. Segundo volumen / escrita por Don Fernando Colón... | Biblioteca Virtual Miguel de Cervantes


and the work from the Dominican friar Bartolomé de las Casas:

Su obra: Catálogo - Bartolomé de las Casas

 

[Stuart Suffel]

So, should I bring up St Brendan...

 

[Dave]

English Civil War - everyone fighting for Parliament was a Puritan and wore black, everyone fighting for the King wore pretty colours. Nope. Lots of non-puritans fighting for Parliament and there was a Puritan (Lord Hopton) fighting for the King. And while some puritans tended to wear plainer clothes, they were not all in black - black was really expensive.

My tutor on my history course last year has a puzzle for her students - she has a page of pictures and you have to spot the Puritan or Cavalier. As you say, it isn't that easy at all. Also the "Roundhead" haircut was one given to apprentices, and so could also be for either side. The Civil War was incredibly divisive, splitting up brothers, families and friends (rather like Brexit really, though I'm not allowed to mention that and Brian will now make me wash out my mouth with soap and water for saying so.)

 

[Tulius Hostilius]

So, should I bring up St Brendan...

There are tons of stories, myths and thesis about the (re)discovery of America, most of them, if not all, just wild guesses, myths and incorrect interpretations of scarce sources.

From the Phoenicians (including hoaxes), Romans, Malian, Arabs, Welsh and Irish (like Saint Brendan). And to more recent time Basques, Portuguese and Britons.

We must recall that even the Norse Sagas were considered for many years just myths, until proven with archaeological evidence.

 

[WaylanderToo]

Not sure if this counts as an inaccuracy or just a funny word mutation. Philistine is often defined as "uncultured barbarian." But they were likely the opposite, yet the word mutated over time, going through various language and literary references, being lumped with a German word that sounds similar to arrive at its present meaning.

a little like how the word decimated has changed out of all recognition...

 

[Montero]

My tutor on my history course last year has a puzzle for her students - she has a page of pictures and you have to spot the Puritan or Cavalier. As you say, it isn't that easy at all. Also the "Roundhead" haircut was one given to apprentices, and so could also be for either side. The Civil War was incredibly divisive, splitting up brothers, families and friends (rather like Brexit really, though I'm not allowed to mention that and Brian will now make me wash out my mouth with soap and water for saying so.)

Did a little googling and found a description from a period pamphlet of them having "hair cut close to their heads". Cos it was occurring to me to wonder whether it was pudding basin, short back and sides, skinhead...... though compared to flowing locks anything short would look odd. There certainly was head shaving - using to deal with lice. And if you are apprenticed to a trade the last thing you need is your hair getting in your eyes... (though you could tie it back). Went to look at portraits to see if I could see short back and sides, but didn't find any before I ran out of time.

Anyway, glad to hear your tutor is shaking things up.