Primark pulls t-shirt in racist TWD merchandise
- Thread starter Phyrebrat
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Boneman
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Both, I imagine... Ignoring common human decency in the name of greed.
Talk:Eeny, meeny, miny, moe - Wikipedia
I didn't know this before, but there are some suggestions (most of them unreferenced in the linked article, but repeated sufficiently commonly to suggest it's not one random loon) that the rhyme -- or some versions of it -- refers to selecting Black slaves when they came off the slave ships -- hence "toe".
If someone has gangrene and you grab their toe, they'll yell and you won't want someone damaged by the slave ship as your slave, so you'll let them go. Alternatively, if someone yells when you grab them, they won't make an appropriately subservient slave and you should discard them.
It certainly makes more sense than "tiger" since (a) tigers don't have toes, and (b) if you caught a tiger by any appendage, it wouldn't be the tiger that squealed.
I didn't know this before, but there are some suggestions (most of them unreferenced in the linked article, but repeated sufficiently commonly to suggest it's not one random loon) that the rhyme -- or some versions of it -- refers to selecting Black slaves when they came off the slave ships -- hence "toe".
If someone has gangrene and you grab their toe, they'll yell and you won't want someone damaged by the slave ship as your slave, so you'll let them go. Alternatively, if someone yells when you grab them, they won't make an appropriately subservient slave and you should discard them.
It certainly makes more sense than "tiger" since (a) tigers don't have toes, and (b) if you caught a tiger by any appendage, it wouldn't be the tiger that squealed.
I wasn't aware of that either, so thanks. That does make sense as to why the rhyme was so very common among children in the UK. Last year, I was researching Patrick Colquhoun's use of some unusual expressions used to describe river pirates in his treatise on policing (he formed the world's first police force - The Thames Marine Police) and my conclusion was that rather than having made up the words, he had borrowed them from his time as a youth managing a Virginian plantation (others had been used to describe highwaymen.) Many young British men were sent off to manage the family North American plantation, and expressions and rhymes learnt there would undoubtedly be brought back home again.
Primark and the manufacturer are really crass to sell that t-shirt, or to even attempt to defend doing so. There is no place to reproduce that today, though I agree that it worked in TWD precisely because Negan has no redeeming qualities at all. However, the UK does need to collectively "get over" our involvement in the slave trade. Warwick Davis, on the TV show "Who Do You Think You Are," couldn't even read the "N" word from the playbill when he found out that his ancestor had been an American-style minstrel and the programme carried a warning that it contained "shocking" material.
When I heard (white) brits on the news calling 'overt sensitivity' and cries of political correctness gone wild, I wondered if they would feel the same about the use of a 'Golly' instead of a 'Golliwog' or that blackface is just a bit of harmless fun.
White privilege is soooo hard for many white folk to get their head around.
However, having said that, I would still reiterate that in TWD S07 E01, Negan's use of the rhyme is intentional- he's an intelligent man who knows its heritage and it appropriates and foreshadows the horror of what happened in the Atlantic Slave Triangle and what was to happen (to Glen and Abe).
Challenging art in tv is one thing - but I doubt there's any catharsis in selling such tee shirts.
pH
White privilege is soooo hard for many white folk to get their head around.
However, having said that, I would still reiterate that in TWD S07 E01, Negan's use of the rhyme is intentional- he's an intelligent man who knows its heritage and it appropriates and foreshadows the horror of what happened in the Atlantic Slave Triangle and what was to happen (to Glen and Abe).
Challenging art in tv is one thing - but I doubt there's any catharsis in selling such tee shirts.
pH
In this case, I think it's that people genuinely don't know the background of the rhyme, so it's a statement of ignorance. I didn't, and it wasn't that easy to find information on.
Now I understand more of the background, it's astounding that such a hideous thing could become such an everyday part of life -- but at the same time, it's not surprisingly, I suppose.
Butcher Cumberland who destroyed half of Scotland is called Sweet William in England and has flowers named after him. Hideous bits of history get made over all the time. Which doesn't make them remotely all right, of course.
Now I understand more of the background, it's astounding that such a hideous thing could become such an everyday part of life -- but at the same time, it's not surprisingly, I suppose.
Butcher Cumberland who destroyed half of Scotland is called Sweet William in England and has flowers named after him. Hideous bits of history get made over all the time. Which doesn't make them remotely all right, of course.
The image the rhyme invokes -- catching a human being by the toe** -- is hardly a pleasant one, even without such a background or the use of the N-word. (As a child, this never occurred to me... but then, I was a child and it's unlikely that it would have.)
** - It's an odd way of catching people if they are free to run about, isn't it? The circumstances in which one could successfully catch someone by their toe rather suggest the intended victims must be far from free to run about.
** - It's an odd way of catching people if they are free to run about, isn't it? The circumstances in which one could successfully catch someone by their toe rather suggest the intended victims must be far from free to run about.
Yes, I think this is important; there's a generational distinction.
I was born in 72 and when we used it we knew it was N-word but it was often changed to something else. I can't actually recall what we said but it wasn't tiger.
pH
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71, and the version at school was the N- version. I think my mother may have overheard or possibly overheard someone else saying it, and to describe her reaction as "coming down on it like a ton of bricks" would be a significant understatement. The dust is probably still clearing. I think we used "tiger", but we never thought it was anything other than a replacement.
@Ursa major -- it didn't occur to me before either, but you're right. Catching someone by the toe has all sorts of nasty implications.
@Ursa major -- it didn't occur to me before either, but you're right. Catching someone by the toe has all sorts of nasty implications.
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The Big Peat
Darth Buddha
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Where as I, born in the 80s, was aware of the nursery rhyme but didn't learn the origins for a long time afterwards.
I intellectually get why people are objecting but emotionally I don't. I'd never look at that t-shirt and think it was racist by myself.
I was read this too fast and honest to god thought you'd written Benedict Cumberbatch.
I intellectually get why people are objecting but emotionally I don't. I'd never look at that t-shirt and think it was racist by myself.
I was read this too fast and honest to god thought you'd written Benedict Cumberbatch.
Have to admit that until I went and looked it up I didn't quite get the emotional reaction either. But if it's actually a rhyme about treating people like things (slaves/ victims about to die) and testing and discarding the "damaged" ones because they weren't any use to you -- not people at all, just labour -- then the whole thing turns appalling. Pinching someone's gangrenous foot to make them scream with pain so you know they're going to die soon and won't be any use on your plantation... Yeesh.
ctg
weaver of the unseen
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The comics has much better images and references to various things, but Negan hasn't ever been a racist. He is a ruthless sadistic person with no remorse - meaning: he doesn't mind who he will kill or intimate. He will continue pushing buttons until something goes sproing and people flip to a mad mode. Then he will smile and be pleased about himself.
I understand if the issue would be this, but twisting rhyme's and meanings is attacking general populace intelligence and in my honest opinion, it muddles the issue, because the character and he choice of words aren't meant to be racist in nature.
Over the years TWD has had number of topics on racism, but so far all of them have been proven wrong. There are more ethnic groups on the screen and in the comics then in many other series. And there will be even more diversity in the future when more people are found in the TV series.
I understand if the issue would be this, but twisting rhyme's and meanings is attacking general populace intelligence and in my honest opinion, it muddles the issue, because the character and he choice of words aren't meant to be racist in nature.
Over the years TWD has had number of topics on racism, but so far all of them have been proven wrong. There are more ethnic groups on the screen and in the comics then in many other series. And there will be even more diversity in the future when more people are found in the TV series.
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HanaBi
Nexus 9.1 For Sale. One Careful Owner
I cast my mind back to my childhood and the nursery rhymes I was taught at home and school. Innocent at the time, but not so much in this day and age...
"Baa Baa Black Sheep", being an obvious one; "Snow White", being another. Even "Humpty Dumpty" and "Old Mother Hubbard", have all come under political and social scrutiny over the years.
"Baa Baa Black Sheep", being an obvious one; "Snow White", being another. Even "Humpty Dumpty" and "Old Mother Hubbard", have all come under political and social scrutiny over the years.
What is important isn't whether 'we' know of the rhyme's providence before being made aware of it, but that once we do, it's incumbent upon us to ensure it's not used in such a way.
pH
pH
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It certainly sounds like the historical references that the script writers may have had in mind make the series incredibly powerful and rich. In the context of Negan being a terrible character and one who acts without remorse, the use of a rhyme we associate with children is freaky and awful.
Given the actual scene though, where I think (though I could be wrong) that he's making a point about not being obviously racist (is that true?) because his victim will be picked at random, it ties into all sorts of other contexts in which humans have been totally controlled by other humans, even to the extent of being randomly killed for amusement.
It feels like a bit of a coincidence, perhaps?
Out of context, wearing the first four words on a t-shirt, you don't know which version of the rhyme is being referenced, or what the show intended to show. Not everyone watches TWD, and I don't think there was any obvious reference to the show on the t-shirt, was there?
Given the actual scene though, where I think (though I could be wrong) that he's making a point about not being obviously racist (is that true?) because his victim will be picked at random, it ties into all sorts of other contexts in which humans have been totally controlled by other humans, even to the extent of being randomly killed for amusement.
It feels like a bit of a coincidence, perhaps?
Out of context, wearing the first four words on a t-shirt, you don't know which version of the rhyme is being referenced, or what the show intended to show. Not everyone watches TWD, and I don't think there was any obvious reference to the show on the t-shirt, was there?
I couldn't say what the scriptwriters motives were and @ctg will know better than anyone, but it is besides the point as the t-shirt is only designed to make money. I'd very much doubt that they cared about the meaning of the phrase, but they must have known that it had an origin that wasn't TWD.
I totally agree 100%, and all I meant was that we shouldn't try to bury that provenance. In your other example, I think it would be wrong to smash those "Golly" ornaments (which I used to get from Robinsons for collecting jam jar lids) or to burn the offending children's soft toys. These are events that really happened in history. We need to accept that they happened even though we now believe they were atrocious. To ignore that or to pretend it never happened, or that we are now much better people, is to invite it to happen again. On the other hand, endless hand-wringing and blame doesn't help either. I am not responsible for what happened or for the world that I was born into.
I totally agree 100%, and all I meant was that we shouldn't try to bury that provenance. In your other example, I think it would be wrong to smash those "Golly" ornaments (which I used to get from Robinsons for collecting jam jar lids) or to burn the offending children's soft toys. These are events that really happened in history. We need to accept that they happened even though we now believe they were atrocious. To ignore that or to pretend it never happened, or that we are now much better people, is to invite it to happen again. On the other hand, endless hand-wringing and blame doesn't help either. I am not responsible for what happened or for the world that I was born into.
I agree, too. I don't think golliwogs or 'gollies' (how is that supposed to be any led offensive?) should be erased. I'm a firm believer that to erase such things is almost the same as rewriting or denying history. You can imagine if people tried to do this with the Jewish holocaust.
Have you ever visited the Toy Museum in Bethnal Green? I often see it on the train into Liverpool St Station, and have wondered if they have evidence of our head-turningly bad stuff in the past. I quite fancy having a nose around.
pH
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