Cyberpunk Fantasy...or how I learned to stop worrying and combine magic and technology

[sinister42]

The short story collection I'm working on takes place in a world I've been working on creating for quite a while. It's not Earth, but it's not a defined "alien" world colonized by humans. It's just another place, like Discworld or Narnia or Westeros. So that makes it fantasy rather than sci fi, right? Also, there's magic in it.

But the world also contains modern/futuristic technology - flying cars, computers, gadgets and gizmos, digital teeth, all of which are powered and operated by a combination of straight up technology and a little bit of magic. Examples:

-Buildings are hexed to be "bigger on the inside" (yes, like Doctor Who but with magic)

-One of my main characters practices "datamancy," the act of using magic to hack computer systems - she summons "daemons" to infiltrate data systems, crack code, and the like. I'm still figuring out how all that works.

-My main PI character can take an image he has in his mind of someone and use magic to transfer it onto photo paper, then upload that photo to the 'net and do a search on that person.

So here's my question, my desire to brainstorm some of this with you.

The main complaint/critique/question/blank staring face thing I get from people is this: If there's magic, why bother with technology - why combine the two?

Well, my answer is this: Why would the existence of magic as a known quantity within society cause that society to stop development in a Medieval fantasy setting, as is so often the case with fantasy? What does Middle Earth look like in a thousand years? Is everyone there really content with fantasy feudalism forever, or would an industrial revolution happen eventually? I mean yeah we can get into arguments about the Orcs being a symbol of the pitfalls of industrialization, especially during the battle with the Ents, but that's beside the point, isn't it? What does an industrial revolution and the development of modern tech look like in a world where everyone knows about and incorporates magic into their daily lives?

Substitute Middle Earth with Discworld and I have the same question. And Sir Terry addressed my question a little bit with books like Raising Steam, where we see the development of a railroad. He did take Discworld out of a Medieval/Renaissance setting a little bit, but not by much. Brandon Sanderson ...I really don't want to talk about Mistborn, but it is my understanding that the later books after the first trilogy take place in a similar modern tech/magic setting. China Mieville has New Crobuzon, a sort of steampunk surrealist masterpiece that shatters genre boundaries and does in fact take place in an industrialized world with a little bit of magic in it. Dune can be argued to be science fantasy, because there's a little bit of magic inherent in Spice vision, but it also takes place in a society that has shunned technology and gone back to a kind of spacefaring feudalism.

But then the second question comes, and I don't really have a good answer for it: What are the rules of magic in my world? When someone picks up a hand terminal (data tablet, handheld computer thing...) that is powered by a combination of actual technological hardware and magic, where does the one end and the other begin?

My answer so far has been thus: Technomancy, the science of combining technology and magic, requires that each gadget begin with a totally magic-free foundation. The motherboards, chips, memory cards, all the hard wired stuff, has to be entirely technological. Magic only comes in when the item is imbued with power - maybe it has a magical everlasting battery. Maybe it uses a magical networking protocol that accesses the 'net through means other than traditional radio waves. Maybe it's hexed in some other way.

Same thing with vehicles. The car itself, the physical hardware of the car - wheels, engine, sheet metal, whatever, has to be physical, material, non-magical. But then it can be imbued with magic to operate - endless fuel, flying capabilities, things like that.

So this post has gotten a lot longer than I intended.

Anyway. You folks interested in cross-genre stuff. What do you think? What tips can you give me to create a coherent tech-fantasy cyberpunk-ish magic-having kickass world that you can wrap your head around and totally believe?

 

[Ihe]

The most convincing reason would be that this world discovered magic much later, and by then they had attained a respectable level of technological acumen. Another reason is that, although magic is accessible to everyone, it requires significant studying. The lazy people of the world might not care too much for magic if they can have their tech. Also, if you limit magic, it makes sense to have tech to suplement each other. The main limitation that would make sense is that magic can't create, only modify, and as such it needs a base resource to modify.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Why would the existence of magic as a known quantity within society cause that society to stop development in a Medieval fantasy setting

That is a very good question.

I have seen both used together in fiction before - Neil Gaiman's books always have a modern setting with a sense of magic; Bryan Wigmore's Goddess Project had Victorian era technology and magic working sometimes together.

So I'd suggest not worrying too much about setting as much as consistency. Ultimately the story will rise or fall on the merits of the story itself.

 

[Nick B]

Don'tnworry about the whys and wherefores, write a darn good story. There are plenty of such worlds and tales in books and in fact, video games and rpgs, so just go for it. I have often toyed with the idea myself, the blend of hi-tech and magic can be awesome.

 

[Dan Jones]

I'm with Brian; I think technology & magic are used together fairly often. Brian modestly failed to mention his own Gathering, which introduces dynamite / munitions technology into a medieval fantasy setting. Even Lord Of The Rings features Saruman instigating a Dark Satanic Mills-type industrial revolution. Jo Z's Abendau series has psychic characters in a space opera setting. For my current WIP I'm featuring psychic characters within a futuristic cyberpunk setting. I think it's actually pretty common and shouldn't be a problem for you. As ever, if the world serves the plot, and the characters work well, then it's all good.

 

[Ursa major]

I suppose what you might want to think about is the cost (in the widest sense of that term) and limits of the use of magic. The less costly and more widespread its use is, the less likely technological solutions would have been considered worthwhile pursuing. (It may be that two different, and isolated, societies developed separately, one based solely on technology we'd possibly recognise, the other based on magic, and what you're portraying is that world long after the two societies have, one way or another, swapped their knowledge.)


As an aside, I'm not sure how the forward motion of a car in the air, using magic (which is also having to keep it aloft), is much different from the forward motion of a car on the ground. Unless the magic is limited/costly, why not always use it as the means of propulsion?

 

[Heir]

Ah, science-fantasy, the genre that we need more of. I'm sure it will have it's time soon. I wrote a post on here asking about one of my own ideas, and it literally deals with some of what you're commenting on. A fantasy world that advances. Yes, Mistborn does this, and Brandon plans to take it all the way to space opera levels.

There are two main plot lines a science-fantasy will generally have in regards to it's magic and science setting. Science vs magic (my later books do this), or science merged with magic.

You seem to be following the latter. I think that's the harder of the two by far, because like you ask, how do you distinguish between what is magic and what is science? Good thing I've spent hours thinking about this, so I can help you out a bit.

This is the way I've defined it: magic remains so, for as long as it is mysterious to everyone. Science is not a mystery, because it is repeatable. I know how to blow up a building with explosives, because there is a precise, objective, repeatable way to do it. And anyone with a fully functioning brain is capable of doing it.

Magic however, is illusive. Some have it, some don't. Why? I don't know. Is it real? Very much so. Is it repeatable? Depends on the magic you have chosen. But generally, yes. If I can command the elements at my will, that's repeatable just like the aforementioned explosives.

But can you replicate it? Can everyone? No. That's why it's magic.
Do I, as the wielder, even understand why I can wield it? No. That's why it's magic.

I hope that helps!

The world sounds really interesting, and it's the kind of thing I enjoy. I also have a cyberpunk that has magic in it, so I'm glad to see someone talking about something exactly the same.

 

[tinkerdan]

I'm thinking that this is a question that derives from one of those biases that exist and people don't realize they have them.

Turn this around and say: since you have technology and science why would you need magic and there might be an argument that yes indeed the introduction of magic minimizes or ruins the purity of your science and technology. So for the purist in reading that would be a poor combination that makes no sense.

Because of that bias when going back the the magic universe and bringing in technology that same bias could have them wondering the same thing without really thinking about it. To exclude technology you would have to have an element in your world that has no faith in science and technology [they don't exist] so I guess if you exclude physics from your world then there would be no need to have technology.

Of course I'm being ridiculous.

On the other hand though I think there would be an argument that magic takes some sort of trade off of energy. You do not get magic for nothing [unless that's how you built your world (then Id be all wet)]. So there might be things that can be done more efficiently with technology, which would argue for its continued use.

 

[tinkerdan]

I've shared this on a number of threads in here already::
All the Windwracked Stars (Sci Fi Essential Books) Hardcover – 6 Dec 2008
by Elizabeth Bear (Author)
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0765318822/?tag=brite-21

:: It is more appropriate to this discussion. This is a Fantasy-Myth-Magic-and Technology story that is listed by the publisher as a Sci Fi Essential, which takes us to that old notion that the genre's are a tool for the publishers, bookstores, and Library's as a means of sorting the books for display to better catch the eye of the intended reader/target.

It's also a pretty nifty story with great prose though I'm not sure how happy I would be if I was going into it thinking there was validity to the Sci Fi Essential claim.

 

[Danny McG]

I've read through all the replies in this thread and got a question - can't remember who wrote it, somewhere in this thread these items are mentioned so the question is - what are digital teeth?

 

[sinister42]

No idea. Just a cute image I came up with. They're teeth, but digital.

 

[The Big Peat]

I refer my honourable colleague to Shadowrun, still the premier mix of magic and cyberpunk technology anyway. The premise is that magic was only discovered post 2000, but it contains some good ideas for the parallel development of magic and technology.

 

[Amelia Faulkner]

Haha @The Big Peat beat me to it!

Basically the reason almost all magic & science settings use for the invention of technology is that magic is limited to a percentage of the population. This is the core reasoning behind the Technocracy in Mage: The Ascension (we don't talk about The Awakening 'round these parts): magic is not democratised. Technology is.

Shadowrun uses the interesting metric whereby the magic you can use comes from within you, so the more of you that you replace with cyberware the less magic you can use. System-wise this stops gamists minmaxing the two systems and breaking your game, but it also spins off into a very well-developed theology.

Avatar: The Last Airbender shows the invention of technological devices by people who are not benders (stop sniggering at the back, British people) because bending is out of reach of them. A hundred years later we see in The Legend of Korra just how far that technology has come, and how despite having technology, non-benders are still treated as inferior by the bending elite. The Legend of Korra is also a subtle masterclass in how nepotism works, as all the descendants of Team Avatar from ATLA hold prime political positions within Republic City and around the world.

If magic existed in your world before science and technology, then you likely have people who cannot use magic. Or people who seek a deeper understanding of how and why magic works. Or perhaps there are ramifications of using magic which technology circumvents. Maybe magic requires components which are now extinct due to being harvested too much for magic, or maybe some spells require rituals which are too tricky to cast and take too much damn time and someone thought "All I want to do is irrigate this field, surely there's another way?"

If magic came to your world after science and technology you have the opportunity to do reverse Luddites: people who refuse to adopt magic because science is tried, tested, and trusted. Who wants any of that newfangled magic stuff when you can use a car and you're less likely to arrive half-embedded in a rock? Dr. McCoy lived in a world in which teleportation was the de facto transport method, both on a planet's surface and between planet and orbiting objects, and he didn't like doing it, opting for a shuttle wherever possible, despite the low, low risks of using a transporter.

And then there's the option of phobias. We have people afraid to fly, despite the safety record of air travel. People who can't leave their homes, despite the outside world not actually being all that harmful. People who can't abide the idea of men touching their pee-pees together, despite that doing them no harm whatsoever. The whole point of a phobia is that it's an irrational fear, so what's to say you don't have people in your world who are magic-phobic? Who cannot stand the idea of magic, let alone of learning to use it, yet don't see why they should miss out on having their fields watered just because they aren't interested in hiring the local weather witch to do it for them.

 

[Ursa major]

No idea. Just a cute image I came up with. They're teeth, but digital.

It seems somewhat ironic that you can't put your finger on what digital teeth are....

 

[KC York]

I think the second question will answer the first. If there are rules to the magic, which is basically the same as saying there are limitations to it -- either just "natural" limitations or a limited population who can use magic, as has been suggested -- then of course people will step up and fill in the blanks that magic cannot fill.

So the question is, what are the rules you can live with as the author? You can create "types" of magic, that some people only have one or the other, which seems to be something you've already got the bones for with your characters. You just need to establish WHY the datamancer can't do what the PI does, and how common datamancy is as a magical talent. Let's be real: in the iron age, a datamancer would have been considered someone who did not have magic at all, or weak magic. Tying the magic to the technology actually answers how technology came to be, and also sets up some interesting twists. Fire mages could have been great blacksmiths, in the day, since they can't forge iron by magic but they can keep fires super hot at will...what are they doing now, in a high tech society? What would your PI do without photopaper? Or the internet? I can see photography being invented by a magic user who could control light.

Anyway, those are my thoughts. I'd like my 2 cents now.

 

[Charles Gull]

For me this all cycles back round to the statement 'The best technology is indistinguishable from magic.' Look around at the i-pod generation. Are they capable of explaining, nay understanding, the technology of their portable devices. In what way is 'I have an App for that' any different from 'I have a Spell for that'?

My current WiP is also a blend of everything from hard science through to Gods and Deities with fantastical abilities.

For me above all else

So I'd suggest not worrying too much about setting as much as consistency. Ultimately the story will rise or fall on the merits of the story itself.

rings truest in all of this. If you can move the reader to the point of 'Suspension of Disbelief' you can more or less get away with anything. However, you shall re-awaken their disbelief if you transgress the lines that you have already set out for them.

 

[KC York]

In what way is 'I have an App for that' any different from 'I have a Spell for that'?

Ahahaha as someone who just bought an Amazon Echo, talking to Alexa does seem a lot like weaving spells. "Make [music,audio book,weather report] happen!" Maybe I should acquire an HP wand and wave it around every time I talk to my robot.

 

[Charles Gull]

HP wand and wave it around every time I talk to my robot.

Surely that is exactly what a wii baton is....

 

[Brian G Turner]

Ahahaha as someone who just bought an Amazon Echo, talking to Alexa does seem a lot like weaving spells. "Make [music,audio book,weather report] happen!" Maybe I should acquire an HP wand and wave it around every time I talk to my robot.

What does it do if you say "Expelliarmus?"

 

[Charles Gull]

What does it do if you say "Expelliarmus?"

From my experience of voice controled systems the spell should probably be 'Expletiviarmus!'.