Historical Urban Fantasy?

[Randy M.]

Just some (possibly confused) thoughts from a reader who hasn't read much urban fantasy.

1)

about as urban as a Monster Truck Demolition Derby.

Syracuse is in the lower range of mid-sized cities. The university has a domed stadium not far from city center and about once a year there's a Monster Truck Rally held there. So, yeah, urban. Maybe blue-collar urban, which would pretty much describe Syracuse.

2. I wouldn't think the time period would make a difference to whether or not it's urban fantasy ...

3. ... Urban would make a difference. Fictional or real city shouldn't matter, but a crowded city would seem necessary for the kind of place where the werewolves, vampires, witches, etc. could wander without being noticed or gain acceptance among a sub-community or just not be noticed because they are one of many groups of unusual people in big cities.

4. I think Charles de Lint and others popped up when the trend to work your fantasy off fairy tale and folklore was strong in the 1980s. A lot of what's called urban fantasy now seems to me to derive from two sources:
A) Fantasy like that from the 1940s, specifically Unknown magazine. You see that thread in the work of Kuttner/Moore, Fred Brown, Richard Matheson on through later writers like Peter Beagle ("Lila the Werewolf" for instance).
B) Less literary sources like Buffy the Vampire Slayer.


I wonder if the impetus to urban fantasy has parallels with what brought us cyberpunk? We want to see magic in the hands of the people on the streets, the ones who would use it pragmatically. No Merlins here, but maybe thieves and con men trying to get by. And unfortunately maybe some drug dealers and gangsters or their analogs trying for bigger scores.

In some cases UF also looks like an extension of noir writing.


Randy M.
(did I mention confused?)

 

[Amelia Faulkner]

4. I think Charles de Lint and others popped up when the trend to work your fantasy off fairy tale and folklore was strong in the 1980s. A lot of what's called urban fantasy now seems to me to derive from two sources:
A) Fantasy like that from the 1940s, specifically Unknown magazine. You see that thread in the work of Kuttner/Moore, Fred Brown, Richard Matheson on through later writers like Peter Beagle ("Lila the Werewolf" for instance).
B) Less literary sources like Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

C) Roleplaying games of the late Eighties and throughout the Nineties.

 

[The Big Peat]

C) Roleplaying games of the late Eighties and throughout the Nineties.

Quoted for truth. Just like D&D took a bunch of early fantasy books and fused them into one vision of fantasy that would become incredibly influential, so too did World of Darkness with early Urban Fantasy and mythology.

 

[Randy M.]

Thanks. By that time my interest in role playing games, not that strong to start with, had dwindled.


Randy M.

 

[Theophania Elliott]

D.B. Jackson's Thieftaker series - set in 18th century Boston. Can't imagine what you'd call it other than historical urban fantasy.
Sarah Pinborough's Murder and Mayhem - set in 19th century London; more historical-urban-horror.

 

[hitmouse]

A couple of the magical realists come to mind. The Deptford Trilogy by Robertson Davies is set in the early 20th century (it's a remarkable book, if you haven't read it.)

Amongst my favourite books. However, although they are perhaps a little fantastical, they are at heart rational stories which deal with completely explicable illusions, and are definately not fantasy.

 

[Toby Frost]

I think Wolfhound Century by Peter Higgins would have to count. It doesn't have the Buffy-type elements that I associate with urban fantasy, but it's set in a miserable Soviet/late Czar style city and includes magical creatures, giants and so on.

 

[Inari Writer]

Inneresting. Can't say I ever got that feeling from it. For me UF goes back to the source material and brings back a set of ideas mostly untouched by Epic Fantasy's conventions. But I could be wrong. Any pointers as to why you believe that?



To the best of my knowledge, Butcher has never lived in Chicago and what he knows of the city is research and visits. And I'm going to guess a lot of his readers have never lived there either (although obviously we have our own examples of modern urban life). As such I am dubious about whether this factor of specific personal experience is the big difference.

Certainly it is possible to use the city as a character in historical fiction - Lindsay Davies' Falco books set in ancient Rome are a fantastic example. And while that's partly the result of fantastic research, I think its also partly down to drawing on the universality of cities. Have you been poor in a city? Congratulations, you've probably had a landlord who you thought deserved the most vicious punishment your moral code permits - just like Falco.


Anyway. Point A - VE Schwaab A Darker Shade of Magic. Can't believe I failed to mention it until now. Its set in Regency era London and a set of parallel universe Londons, which provide the 'hidden magic' motif that so often marks UF. Also there's a thief which is further proof of my new belief that crime is a nigh-universal ingredient in 'historical' Urban Fantasy.

Point B - Just thought I'd look at wiki for a definition...

"Urban fantasy is a subgenre of fantasy defined by place; the fantastic narrative has an urban setting, because it seems that stories with said setting are distinct enough to warrrant their own sub-subgenre. Urban fantasy exists on one side of a spectrum,[citation needed] opposite high fantasy, which is set in an entirely fictitious world. Many urban fantasies are set in contemporary times and contain supernatural elements. However, the stories can take place in historical, modern, or futuristic periods. The prerequisite is that they must be primarily set in a city."

"Urban fantasy describes a work that is set primarily in the real world and contains aspects of fantasy. These matters may involve the arrivals of alien races, the discovery of earthbound mythological creatures, coexistence between humans and paranormal beings, conflicts between humans and malicious paranormals, and subsequent changes to city management.[3][4]

Although stories may be set in contemporary times, this characteristic is not necessary for the fiction to be considered urban fantasy,[1] as works of the genre may also take place in futuristic and historical settings, real or imagined.[3] Author Marie Brennan has set urban fantasy in Elizabethan London, while author Charles de Lint has featured the genre in the fictional city of Newford."

So... its very set on the idea that Urban Fantasy is about the use of real world locations but then goes on to admit one of the founding fathers of the genre didn't use a real world location. Good work there!

Also, they say its mainly about the city, but here they include American Gods, which is about as urban as a Monster Truck Demolition Derby. In fact, if you look at that list, you might be tempted to say Urban Fantasy is fantasy set in the modern age and that historical urban fantasy is a contradiction in terms...


Point C - While writing this, I just remembered Daniel Polansky's Straight Razor Cure. Fantasy-Noir, can't quite place the era but definitely not modern and very much city based. But does the city have its own character? Debatable.

Can't tell you where I got the idea that Urban Fantasy was a reaction to Epic Fantasy. It was an author interview from years ago. I had a dig around online for the interview and came up blank, can't even work out who said it now; which suggests that the author-in-question's theory is not as widely accepted as I thought it was.

I can talk a bit about why the best Urban Fantasy explores the nature of a city as well as adding supernatural elements to it.

Charles De Lint invented the city of Newford because he didn't feel that he knew any real city well enough to depict it properly in his stories. The town itself with its curious blend of American and Canadian culture is a key 'character' in De Lint's stories. It's not just our world with added fantasy; it's our world seen through a cracked lense or put through a metaphorical blender.

Neverwhere, another classic of the genre, was based heavily around reimagining London Underground Stations as places of magic. There really is an Angel called Islington for example. Gaiman's American Gods series, while admittedly not very city-centric, is as much about the soul and history of the USA as it is about ancient mythologies. Gaiman makes magic from mundanity.

Rivers of London and its sequels by Ben Aaronovitch have achieved mainstream success; winning awards and hitting bestseller lists . Mainly I think due to the easy humour, police procedural elements and certain similarities to Harry Potter. But also because it is an infectiously affectionate depiction of London and Londoners.

To me the best Urban Fantasy novels are the ones with a good sense of place. Novels that say something about the real world as well as fictional ones.

It is interesting to hear that Jim Butcher isn't a Chicago resident though. That makes me feel that I do have a good chance of writing London, since I've lived on its outskirts most of my life.

Getting back to the original topic for a moment. You could use a historical fantasy like 'Wonders Will Never Cease" by Robert Irwin as an example of a book which is very much not Urban Fantasy, being set in castles and forests and many of the places that traditional epic fantasy inhabits. Or perhaps it is UF because it is set in the 'real world'?

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

The panel has come and gone (as I mentioned, it was Friday), and I was able to work in some of the suggestions made here, so thank you to anyone who provided their thoughts or suggested books!

Although there is no reason not to continue the discussion here, which is an interesting one. Some of you should have been on the panel. The discussion there would have had more depth, I think, if you had been. If only you didn't all live too far away to attend the convention!

 

[The Big Peat]

Glad to hear it. Although I'm now wishing I'd been smart enough to ask whether Superhero stories were a type of Urban Fantasy (or maybe vice versa) before this...

Just some (possibly confused) thoughts from a reader who hasn't read much urban fantasy.

1) Syracuse is in the lower range of mid-sized cities. The university has a domed stadium not far from city center and about once a year there's a Monster Truck Rally held there. So, yeah, urban. Maybe blue-collar urban, which would pretty much describe Syracuse.

I very deliberately added 'demolition derbies' there because I figured monster trucks alone would be found in urban settings. Although even then, I suspect somewhere is disproving me.

Which I think brings up an interesting point in how often do things have to occur in cities to be urban? I mean... there's plenty of farms in cities these days. But I'm pretty sure most people don't associate farms with being an urban thing. Rednecks certainly aren't associated with urban, but I'm guessing there's plenty of people who are who live in cities. Some of them might even have been raised there. The list probably goes on and on for cities attract almost everything there is in the human experience, even things we don't really associate with cities.

 

[Danny McG]

I have some reservations about the Wikipedia statement that urban fantasy must take place in a city. Surely the population must be relevant?
In the UK the nearest CITY to me is Carlisle, population 72,000. There are several cities with much less of a population;
Then we come to large TOWNS. Some have populations in the hundreds of thousands, Bournemouth has 400,000 plus residents, Middlesbrough 240,000 and many more towns
have such large populaces .
They have much larger 'urban sprawls' than the smaller cities so should be able to attract a proportional representation of urban fantasy.

Can't resist finishing with this...
"Just saying, like"

 

[hitmouse]

I have some reservations about the Wikipedia statement that urban fantasy must take place in a city. Surely the population must be relevant?
In the UK the nearest CITY to me is Carlisle, population 72,000. There are several cities with much less of a population;
Then we come to large TOWNS. Some have populations in the hundreds of thousands, Bournemouth has 400,000 plus residents, Middlesbrough 240,000 and many more towns
have such large populaces .
They have much larger 'urban sprawls' than the smaller cities so should be able to attract a proportional representation of urban fantasy.

Can't resist finishing with this...
"Just saying, like"

I think the slightly odd British qualification to be called a city ( has to have an Anglican cathedral or a Royal Warrant) might not have occurred to the writers of that Wikipedia article, though there might be ptential for an urban fantasy set in the the city of St Davids, which has one lovely cathedral plus a population of about 6 people and an old cat.

 

[Danny McG]

Been looking google . There's a load of very small cities in the USA also - Vergennes in Vermont for example, populace less than 2, 500, I don't think that'll have much of an urban area either.
IMO urban fantasy should be in any reasonable sized town or city... Now we need a definition of "reasonable sized"

 

[Brian G Turner]

I have some reservations about the Wikipedia statement

I don't find Wikipedia's definitions of genre to be useful or realistic. It also effectively claims that "epic fantasy" is just another term for "high fantasy", which IMO is misleading as the latter is commonly accepted as implying a strong focus on magic, whereas but the former might only contain a limited aspect if any (cf George R R Martin, Joe Abercrombie, etc).

I always presumed that "Urban Fantasy" simply meant a modern day setting, usually involving some degree of magic and/or supernatural. IMO the term "urban" simply underlines not to expect a rural setting by default, as is common with secondary world fantasy, and is the simplest way for getting that across.

 

[nixie]

Cassandra Clare's The Infernal Devices series, it's YA and probably more Steam Punk but it's set in Victorian London.

I did finish the series, but found it below average.

 

[Ursa major]

Bournemouth has 400,000 plus residents

The urban area containing Bournemouth contains more than 400,000 people, but just over 180,000 live in Bournemouth itself. (Bournemouth University and the Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra are both located in Poole, whose population is just under 150,000.)

Note that if you had delayed your post for a while, you may have been almost correct: there's a proposal to join Bournemouth UA**, Poole UA** and Christchurch*** into one unitary authority (which may or may not be called Bournemouth****). This, though, would not include all of the urban area, parts of which are to be found in East Dorset*** and Purbeck***, both of which look likely to be absorbed into a new Dorset UA.


** - Unitary Authority, which combined the roles of county and district councils. (Both Bournemouth and Poole prefer to call themselves boroughs.)

*** - Christchurch, East Dorset and Purbeck are all districts that come under Dorset Country Council.

**** - "Bay City" is probably not a runner, even though both Bournemouth and Poole are situated on Poole Bay.

 

[Toby Frost]

I'm pretty sure that urban fantasy doesn't have to take place in a particularly urbanised area so long as it still feels right. I'm sure I once read something about a werewolf in small-town America that would have qualified. Although it's not exactly right, I think the comparison with cyberpunk is quite good. I have a feeling that urban fantasy involves low-scale and often hidden supernatural beings who get on with the normal world rather than obviously changing it for their own purposes, rather like the way cyberpunk seems to revolve around surviving the world rather than taking command of it.

 

[The Big Peat]

I don't find Wikipedia's definitions of genre to be useful or realistic. It also effectively claims that "epic fantasy" is just another term for "high fantasy", which IMO is misleading as the latter is commonly accepted as implying a strong focus on magic, whereas but the former might only contain a limited aspect if any (cf George R R Martin, Joe Abercrombie, etc).

I always presumed that "Urban Fantasy" simply meant a modern day setting, usually involving some degree of magic and/or supernatural. IMO the term "urban" simply underlines not to expect a rural setting by default, as is common with secondary world fantasy, and is the simplest way for getting that across.

I don't see anything unrealistic about seeing Epic and High as being the same thing. Not sure I agree with it, but plenty out there either seem to explicitly do so, or implicitly do so because they can't give a convincing case for where the borders lie and put the same books into both genres.

Point in case - if High Fantasy implies a strong focus on magic, how is Tolkien High Fantasy if we're regarding Martin and Abercrombie as not having a strong focus?

People are blaming Wiki for slipshod genre definitions but I think the blame lies with the definitions to begin with. I don't think fantasy's subgenres are at all well defined

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Been looking google . There's a load of very small cities in the USA also - Vergennes in Vermont for example, populace less than 2, 500, I don't think that'll have much of an urban area either.

Yes, there are a number of places in the US (including the town where I live) that call themselves "cities" but this doesn't make them actual cities.

I wouldn't even call the towns immediately surrounding us cities, although they are much larger than we are, and despite what it might say on their official stationary.

 

[Phyrebrat]

The urban area containing Bournemouth contains more than 400,000 people, but just over 180,000 live in Bournemouth itself. (Bournemouth University and the Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra are both located in Poole, whose population is just under 150,000.)

As a Bournemouthian myself, I can say it gets even more complicated when you have knowledge of the geography in real terms.

Bournemouth University is about five miles from Poole Centre, and five mins from my Folks' Homestead. My folks homestead is a fifteen minute walk to Bournemouth Town Centre. And whilst Bomo Uni is definintely classed as Poole, you'd be hard pushed to find someone who would say it was in Poole. (Am I making sense?)

Anyway, this is hardly germane to TE's initial question so I'll leave it there.

pH