Character Timelines

[tinkerdan]

In Dune it's not the italics that's the problem unless you factor in how many times it happens it a single section::

I don't know where the modern movement against using italics for thoughts has come from. I've heard it from quite a few people, but I can't think of a clearer way to separate thoughts from dialogue or the main story.

::This is compounded by there being from three to five characters in a section who have direct thoughts in italics. The italics draws attention to it and I think that it might have been much smoother had he just put those in the narrative without the italics.

Having the italics was very similar to the movie with the constant thoughts being expressed in voice overs.

This was one case where the movie tried to stay true to the book and would have been better off to not do so.

However flashbacks and memories are a different thing from direct thoughts.

How about when you read?::

Someone recently flabbergasted me when they told me they think in their own voice. I've never had a voice to my thoughts. It's an odd conundrum.

Is there a voice there?

Do not read Dune::

Ah. Important point there. I was assuming that everyone who uses italics for direct thoughts only does so for the POV character in the scene. If this were omni and all characters were doing it on the same page, I'd probably pull my hair out!

pH

 

[Phyrebrat]

Ah. Important point there. I was assuming that everyone who uses italics for direct thoughts only does so for the POV character in the scene. If this were omni and all characters were doing it on the same page, I'd probably pull my hair out!

pH

 

[Toby Frost]

Dune jumps from POV to POV like crazy, often several times in a scene. It seemed to be the done thing back then. That kind of head-hopping is generally seen as bad now, although I could imagine it working well in a comedy where misunderstandings are common. Also, Dune contains a lot of intrigue and distrust so I can see what Herbert is trying to do, given that the characters are unlikely to admit their real feelings to anyone else.

I suppose I see italicised thoughts as a short of shorthand to what the character is thinking, not the literal thoughts they would have. If a character thinks The only person suffering the consequences will be you, my liege, the real thoughts would probably be a complete jumble involving hostility, resentment and irony, and wouldn't make any sense on paper. I suppose another option would be to tell the thoughts in the third person, ie "Tomorrow she could begin her training. But first, she would need a sword." but I think this might get clunky after a while.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Dune jumps from POV to POV like crazy, often several times in a scene.

Dune a masterclass in Omniscient POV -> whenever you see other character thoughts it is to underline conflict between them. This is especially apparent early in the book, with the Paul/Jessica/Yeoh POVs.

The problem with a lot of Omniscient POV these days is that it's nothing more than a screenplay with notes inbetween dialogue - probably from the writer coming to writing from watching too much TV or film, rather than reading modern novels.

2c.

 

[HareBrain]

I suppose I see italicised thoughts as a short of shorthand to what the character is thinking, not the literal thoughts they would have.

That's probably the best way of looking at them, but I can't seem to do that, or not to the extent that a lot of the long-winded, over-precise examples require. Italics to me are like quote marks round speech -- and we know speech in fiction isn't 100% realistic, but it has to be close enough.

 

[Dan Jones]

Any kind of sentence-like thought is 'incorrect' as far as I can say because I don't believe I or we, rather, think in words, but a gestalt made of impressions images and 'something else'.

I think there are specific instances where one does think in one's own voice, for example when you're thinking something you want to say in conversation, but hold back for whatever reason. Case in point.

"I was devastated to hear about your father, Charles."
Not so devastated to bother making it to the funeral.

In this example I think we do think "in voice" and there are probably other scenarios, too. But I agree that most thinking is highly abstract and unfathomable, so the italics are probably best used sparingly.

On the issue of flashbacks, personally I try to avoid them. They One reason I might use one is if there is a temporal duality affecting the story - ie the storyline happening in the past is just as fleshed out as the one in the present, and they then dovetail at the end to resolve each other. Mark Lawrence did this quite well in Prince of Thorns, but even then he may have overdone it.

 

[Toby Frost]

I agree - I think italicised thoughts in novels lie somewhere between real thoughts and things muttered under your breath.