Most common tropes/cliches in fantasy writing

[Ragandar]

Figured I'd leave this here.

He actually uploaded a more serious video on clichés very recently.

It's almost as if he caught wind of this thread!

As for me personally, I'm on the end of the spectrum where I am terrified to write about anything that might be even remotely cliché. It's definitely an area in which I still have a lot to learn. I don't feel like I have enough experience yet to subvert a cliché well enough to make it work.

 

[CryptOfCthulhu]

He actually uploaded a more serious video on clichés very recently.

It's almost as if he caught wind of this thread!

As for me personally, I'm on the end of the spectrum where I am terrified to write about anything that might be even remotely cliché. It's definitely an area in which I still have a lot to learn. I don't feel like I have enough experience yet to subvert a cliché well enough to make it work.

I know it's a "cliche" to say so, but execution of the idea is what matters most. Just because something is considered cliche it shouldn't automatically be off limits. It's one thing to merely include it due to the assumption that your story won't be considered authentic, at least as far as the genre is concerned, without it, and another to fit it into the story without it standing out like a sore thumb.

Trying to stay on the opposite spectrum from what is considered cliche can create problems as well. You may have zero discernible cliches yet the story might still be poorly executed.

 

[The Big Peat]

I dunno about that. I've just got done reading some screenplay advice, and the very first thing written was "a lot of ideas simply are never gonna work, so spend some time getting a really killer idea first". Now, yeah, Hollywood is different, because they can have less movies than we have books, and they're really shooting for the stars every time, but there's something to be said for the idea. If your idea brings nothing 'new' to the genre, its probably not going to get very far, no matter how well you execute it.

Sure, the line between concept and execution can get fuzzy at times, but at some point you have to decide what you write about, and even the greatest prose and timing will struggle to save you if you chose to write a really dumb idea.

I would add that you don't need to be radically new or subverting tropes or any of that. Harry Potter is a pretty much straight up Chosen One. The whole "Chosen by his enemy" thing is a kinda cool twist late in the day, but we're talking cake decoration rather than cake recipe. Harry Dresden is basically all the wizard and noir detective tropes in one, which is both really old and really new. And done a few other times before by others. I would struggle to tell you what Brandon Sanderson brought to the table that was new in Mistborn other than the magic system, And so on. I think a lot of people worry about subverting cliches when they don't have to. You can tell a fantastic story using a lot of the cliches fairly straight. That's why they're cliches. Obviously if you want to go to town and subvert like mad and change the rules, that's different, but you don't have to do that to be the top dog.

In fact, I'd argue that embracing the core archetypes of fantasy is a necessary move to be top dog. Not "Has a wise old teacher who turns out to be his grandfather or mother" to pick one from the list linked in the first post, but stuff like the Chosen One. The Mysterious Mentor. The figures that are in the tales this race has told hundreds and hundreds of times; that has happened for a reason. Don't get put off by people bitching about them, just google Rowling's sales numbers.

 

[DelActivisto]

I dunno about that. I've just got done reading some screenplay advice, and the very first thing written was "a lot of ideas simply are never gonna work, so spend some time getting a really killer idea first". Now, yeah, Hollywood is different, because they can have less movies than we have books, and they're really shooting for the stars every time, but there's something to be said for the idea. If your idea brings nothing 'new' to the genre, its probably not going to get very far, no matter how well you execute it.

Sure, the line between concept and execution can get fuzzy at times, but at some point you have to decide what you write about, and even the greatest prose and timing will struggle to save you if you chose to write a really dumb idea.

I would add that you don't need to be radically new or subverting tropes or any of that. Harry Potter is a pretty much straight up Chosen One. The whole "Chosen by his enemy" thing is a kinda cool twist late in the day, but we're talking cake decoration rather than cake recipe. Harry Dresden is basically all the wizard and noir detective tropes in one, which is both really old and really new. And done a few other times before by others. I would struggle to tell you what Brandon Sanderson brought to the table that was new in Mistborn other than the magic system, And so on. I think a lot of people worry about subverting cliches when they don't have to. You can tell a fantastic story using a lot of the cliches fairly straight. That's why they're cliches. Obviously if you want to go to town and subvert like mad and change the rules, that's different, but you don't have to do that to be the top dog.

In fact, I'd argue that embracing the core archetypes of fantasy is a necessary move to be top dog. Not "Has a wise old teacher who turns out to be his grandfather or mother" to pick one from the list linked in the first post, but stuff like the Chosen One. The Mysterious Mentor. The figures that are in the tales this race has told hundreds and hundreds of times; that has happened for a reason. Don't get put off by people bitching about them, just google Rowling's sales numbers.

I'd hasten to add - Rowling may have written straight up Chosen One, but the way she presented the world of wizarding was extremely fresh and exciting. Not a whole lot was necessarily unique about it, but the execution was phenomenal. As a friend once told me, "She's a good wordsmith."

Also, in the Mistborn series, Sanderson subverts the Chosen One Prophecy cliche by upending it and asking, "What if the prophecy failed and the villain won?" And I think that got pulled off pretty well.

Comparatively, his new Knights Radiant series is much more cliched. It doesn't seem to make any difference - it's still quality writing.

So actually I'm agreeing with you, I just didn't realize it at first.

 

[CryptOfCthulhu]

I'd hasten to add - Rowling may have written straight up Chosen One, but the way she presented the world of wizarding was extremely fresh and exciting. Not a whole lot was necessarily unique about it, but the execution was phenomenal. As a friend once told me, "She's a good wordsmith."

Also, in the Mistborn series, Sanderson subverts the Chosen One Prophecy cliche by upending it and asking, "What if the prophecy failed and the villain won?" And I think that got pulled off pretty well.

Comparatively, his new Knights Radiant series is much more cliched. It doesn't seem to make any difference - it's still quality writing.

So actually I'm agreeing with you, I just didn't realize it at first.

Harry Potter was different in that he was the prototypical ninety pound weakling with glasses, basically an every man, that became a powerful wizard with the support of those around him. Without his friends by his side he would have probably failed to reach his potential, so he was a much more humble hero, regardless of how powerful he became towards the end.

Doesn't the Mistborn series start with the notion that the "Dark Lord" won? I wouldn't give Sanderson all that much credit given he didn't actually risk writing a book where that was the ending. If the finale to the series was the villain won then I would consider it a trope subversion.

 

[The Big Peat]

There's no shortage of Chosen Ones with humble beginnings and everyman status who only reach their full powerful potential through the help of their friends. Its the default setting.

I'd hasten to add - Rowling may have written straight up Chosen One, but the way she presented the world of wizarding was extremely fresh and exciting. Not a whole lot was necessarily unique about it, but the execution was phenomenal. As a friend once told me, "She's a good wordsmith."

Also, in the Mistborn series, Sanderson subverts the Chosen One Prophecy cliche by upending it and asking, "What if the prophecy failed and the villain won?" And I think that got pulled off pretty well.

Comparatively, his new Knights Radiant series is much more cliched. It doesn't seem to make any difference - it's still quality writing.

So actually I'm agreeing with you, I just didn't realize it at first.

Its the "Same But Different" principle. The Different bit lets you use the big resonant themes and archetypes most people love by making the surroundings fresh and exciting; the Same gives people a portal and a guide to all the exciting new stuff you've done well.

I can't say I found either that different, but clearly plenty did. They were certainly different enough to be great core ideas.

In terms of selling stories, "The Same But Different" is probably about as important a piece of advice as you'll get. It mightn't be the most important piece of advice for writing the - although I'd say its pretty important - but its big for selling them. If the different is extremely fresh and exciting, and the same is well executed and captures what makes the idea resonate, you're gonna do well.

 

[DelActivisto]

Harry Potter was different in that he was the prototypical ninety pound weakling with glasses, basically an every man, that became a powerful wizard with the support of those around him. Without his friends by his side he would have probably failed to reach his potential, so he was a much more humble hero, regardless of how powerful he became towards the end.

Doesn't the Mistborn series start with the notion that the "Dark Lord" won? I wouldn't give Sanderson all that much credit given he didn't actually risk writing a book where that was the ending. If the finale to the series was the villain won then I would consider it a trope subversion.

Spoiler: Mistborn Spoilers - chosen one and prophecy plots

The story started out with that notion. The Dark Lord tried to fix the world and make it better, but wound up messing everything up and subjecting everyone to his rule. Somehow he maintained a balance between good and evil, and when they kill him in the first book, the balance is upset, and evil (Obliteration, I believe it was called) tries to destroy the world. Sanderson again upends the Chosen One prophecy in the first book by having the prophecies be lies created by the Dark One. At the very end of the series, he upends the Chosen One prophecy yet again by having the Chosen One be someone you didn't really suspect the entire time, someone other than the person who seemed like the MC. Bravo, Sanderson!

There's no shortage of Chosen Ones with humble beginnings and everyman status who only reach their full powerful potential through the help of their friends. Its the default setting.



Its the "Same But Different" principle. The Different bit lets you use the big resonant themes and archetypes most people love by making the surroundings fresh and exciting; the Same gives people a portal and a guide to all the exciting new stuff you've done well.

I can't say I found either that different, but clearly plenty did. They were certainly different enough to be great core ideas.

In terms of selling stories, "The Same But Different" is probably about as important a piece of advice as you'll get. It mightn't be the most important piece of advice for writing the - although I'd say its pretty important - but its big for selling them. If the different is extremely fresh and exciting, and the same is well executed and captures what makes the idea resonate, you're gonna do well.

Good point, good point.

 

[The Big Peat]

On Mistborn - correct me if wrong, but isn't most of that after the first book? I.e. He only went there after he'd already hooked the readers?


Also, I'd been going to edit this into my last post, but, err, went over 60 minutes:

And another thing in a "Love your cliches because they will serve you well" vein -

Be careful when listening to people talk about what's a cliche or not, because people talk a lot of crap about what's a fantasy cliche and what's not. To pick a low hanging fruit from the list DelActivisto posted up:

"Evil = ugly, stupid and mean while Good = beautiful/handsome, wise and kind" is on the same list as "Deformed man with a heart of gold/Handsome villain with a heart of darkest evil." So... anything other than characters with bland physical features is a cliche? I mean, that's kinda true, but its a true in an incredibly unhelpful way. It's not the only case where they've got you coming and going.

There's a lot of that list - and other lists - where I honestly wonder what books they've been reading that I haven't. Take this one: "Hero has a wise old teacher who turns out the be his grandfather or mother." I can only think of only one pre-1998 big time fantasy series that did that. Maybe there's a bunch of B list stuff that did it that I missed. Or maybe the person who wrote this is barking up the wrong tree. I can't say. But maybe an old B list cliche doesn't matter to a modern writer (although ironically I think this one is more popular today then it was then).

Of course, the point of cliches is they don't have to be true. Its just that people have to believe them to be true. Take the next one on the list:

"Little people come from a country resembling England to defeat the evil wizard/king/complete the quest/save the world/etc."

This one is kinda true. But, Tolkien aside, most of the examples of this resemble England only in the most superficial of ways. A lot of them are pretty dang American when you get down to it. Which means GRR Martin was able to park his tanks on "Fantasy country that actually genuinely resembles England" and come across as fresh, exciting and different. A common fantasy cliche that's being executed in a stock, sloppy way is a fantastic opportunity.

I get crabby about these lists because I've seen too many of them and too many conversations about them (You're sick of elves? How can you be sick of something that's barely used any more?). But they are pretty useful, as much for what they get wrong as what they get right.

I wish I had the time to do an up to date one.

 

[DelActivisto]

On Mistborn - correct me if wrong, but isn't most of that after the first book? I.e. He only went there after he'd already hooked the readers?


Also, I'd been going to edit this into my last post, but, err, went over 60 minutes:

And another thing in a "Love your cliches because they will serve you well" vein -

Be careful when listening to people talk about what's a cliche or not, because people talk a lot of crap about what's a fantasy cliche and what's not. To pick a low hanging fruit from the list DelActivisto posted up:

"Evil = ugly, stupid and mean while Good = beautiful/handsome, wise and kind" is on the same list as "Deformed man with a heart of gold/Handsome villain with a heart of darkest evil." So... anything other than characters with bland physical features is a cliche? I mean, that's kinda true, but its a true in an incredibly unhelpful way. It's not the only case where they've got you coming and going.

There's a lot of that list - and other lists - where I honestly wonder what books they've been reading that I haven't. Take this one: "Hero has a wise old teacher who turns out the be his grandfather or mother." I can only think of only one pre-1998 big time fantasy series that did that. Maybe there's a bunch of B list stuff that did it that I missed. Or maybe the person who wrote this is barking up the wrong tree. I can't say. But maybe an old B list cliche doesn't matter to a modern writer (although ironically I think this one is more popular today then it was then).

Of course, the point of cliches is they don't have to be true. Its just that people have to believe them to be true. Take the next one on the list:

"Little people come from a country resembling England to defeat the evil wizard/king/complete the quest/save the world/etc."

This one is kinda true. But, Tolkien aside, most of the examples of this resemble England only in the most superficial of ways. A lot of them are pretty dang American when you get down to it. Which means GRR Martin was able to park his tanks on "Fantasy country that actually genuinely resembles England" and come across as fresh, exciting and different. A common fantasy cliche that's being executed in a stock, sloppy way is a fantastic opportunity.

I get crabby about these lists because I've seen too many of them and too many conversations about them (You're sick of elves? How can you be sick of something that's barely used any more?). But they are pretty useful, as much for what they get wrong as what they get right.

I wish I had the time to do an up to date one.

I'm sort of with you there. One of my favorite stories is so cliched that many people unanimously hate it. It's called Eragon, and is widely regarded as being a completely knock off. I didn't care when I read it, and still don't care, because it's an enjoyable read. 25 million other people agree with me - just not the ones who bother to start threads and entire websites bashing it.

And for my part, I have several cliches I'm playing with. Dark One is not actually the Dark One - someone else is. I've got a glowing, magical sword (that one is basically obligatory). It's in a medieval-lite setting. I've no idea what time era it is, because it's mix. Different countries have different rates of development and intellectual achievement.

"On Mistborn - correct me if wrong, but isn't most of that after the first book? I.e. He only went there after he'd already hooked the readers?"

Well, the world starts off dystopia style. But as the story progresses we learn that the Lord Ruler was not the one who was supposed to gain the power of the world... if I'm remembering correctly. I might not be, but I think I am. At the very end, the person who you thought was going to be the Chosen One wound up being someone completely different. So a bit of a twist.