Possible culture and character colour appropriation

[The Bluestocking]

Ridiculous. Brians statements are clearly nuanced - if writing about emotionally sensitive peoples, events and circumstances it behooves the writer to attempt to understand the context, both out of respect for the subject matter but also out of respect for the validity of their own work.

Now I would agree writing a pseudo African tribal analogue may have difficulties for an author but I think it is still their right to choose to do so. Cultural, social or economic groups do not have the sole right of arbitration on works depicting thier life, nor are the exclusive right to tell "their" story. Otherwise why should the wealthy write tales of the poor? Why should white people write POC? Why should any of us write any SF or Fantasy outside of our direct experience.

If we can only write about direct experience then literature would be a drab place indeed.

I said what I said because, as a non-White reader, I've seen White authors do a botch job on POC and female characters and story worlds far, far too often. There are White authors who are absolutely fantastic at writing stories set in non-White cultures but they are in the minority and they absolutely do their homework. Guy Gavriel Kay comes to mind as one example: he does a TON of research, interviews etc before even setting pen to paper. He is meticulous about it, respectful, and doesn't fall back on ethnic or gender stereotypes. Charles de Lint is another author who writes stories set in or inspired by other cultures well. Again - he does his homework.

As @Shorewalker points out: "I'm not convinced that you are yet fully informed enough to do the subject matter justice. Instead of placing the story in 'the bottom end of the northern part', I'd suggest you decide exactly where you could place it and research the precise conditions that appertained before twisting them to suit the story."

And based on what Anthorn has told us about the story and characters, I would agree with Shorewalker.

@anthorn says: "As you know, we live in a hyper sensitive world these days so we've got to be extra careful when we write, talk, walk, look." That tells me that even as he writes this story, he's already not very happy - at the back of his mind - about "political correctness". The words "hyper sensitive" indicate this. And if he/she/they are already feeling like they are treading on eggshells about POC characters, it's absolutely an indication that this may not be his/her/their story to tell or issues to examine.

I'll just quote Neil Gaiman on this:

I was reading a book (about interjections, oddly enough) yesterday which included the phrase “In these days of political correctness…” talking about no longer making jokes that denigrated people for their culture or for the colour of their skin. And I thought, “That’s not actually anything to do with ‘political correctness’. That’s just treating other people with respect.”

Which made me oddly happy. I started imagining a world in which we replaced the phrase “politically correct” wherever we could with “treating other people with respect”, and it made me smile.

You should try it. It’s peculiarly enlightening.

I know what you’re thinking now. You’re thinking “Oh my god, that’s treating other people with respect gone mad!”

So no - it isn't ridiculous to suggest that perhaps the story Anthorn wants to tell isn't his/hers/theirs to tell. Most authors/writers, if we're honest with ourselves, can admit that there are stories (and/or genres) that we cannot tell because it's not ours to tell.

Perhaps the bones of Anthorn's story can be transposed into another setting/milieu that would have less cultural appropriation and tokenism landmines for him/her/them to navigate.

Or perhaps what Anthorn really needs to do, go back to the drawing board to do the research etc needed to understand the culture he wishes to set his story in and the ethnic community that he wants to base his POC characters on.

 

[Toby Frost]

I would agree with that with one exception: I would draw the line between "approach this with extreme caution" and "you may not approach this". I think it's integral for writers that they should be able to try to write what they want. However, it's just as fundamental for readers and critics to be able to say "You have made a bad job of depicting this" or "I cannot believe that these characters are believable as normal sane people in that situation".

 

[Shorewalker]

I would agree with that with one exception: I would draw the line between "approach this with extreme caution" and "you may not approach this". I think it's integral for writers that they should be able to try to write what they want. However, it's just as fundamental for readers and critics to be able to say "You have made a bad job of depicting this" or "I cannot believe that these characters are believable as normal sane people in that situation".

I would agree, although I would add that a bad story is not the only possible poor outcome. Offending the hell out of a group of people is also a risk.

There's a reason why it's called a 'comfort zone', as it usually doesn't involve a ton of research and much soul-searching before committing words to paper. If you want out of it, you've got to put in the hard yards.

 

[Abernovo]

As you know, we live in a hyper sensitive world these days so we've got to be extra careful when we write, talk, walk, look.

Starting the post with this sentence worried me. Because it's about being considerate, not shifting the blame on to others who might be hurt by a writer's insensitivity or blundering, which is how that came across. I'm sure that's not what you're trying to do--the fact that you're asking this before you jump in feet first suggests otherwise--but your post does strike me as lacking in research.

And I will add this (to what @Brian G Turner said) - Perhaps some stories are not yours to tell?

This. There are, of course, caveats to this -- if you have specialist knowledge, or have done intensive research, for instance. Why does it have to be a continent based on Africa? Huge place, with so many cultures and traditions, that you'd need to be much more specific to define what sort of culture you're looking to. Even 'the bottom end of the northern part' (so, somewhere within the Sahel?) is huge and comprised of many different regions and communities.

Also, if you still wish to go down this route, I'd seriously suggest a sensitivity reader, even after serious amounts of research.

Just on another note - the market hates stories with helpless little women protected by men. It certainly tweaked my buttons

Oh, yes. As did the 'non-Westernised' woman not being as smart as the 'Westernised' one. There was a recent controversy over a book with similar tropes and themes.

 

[SilentRoamer]

I said what I said because, as a non-White reader, I've seen White authors do a botch job on POC and female characters and story worlds far, far too often. There are White authors who are absolutely fantastic at writing stories set in non-White cultures but they are in the minority and they absolutely do their homework. Guy Gavriel Kay comes to mind as one example: he does a TON of research, interviews etc before even setting pen to paper. He is meticulous about it, respectful, and doesn't fall back on ethnic or gender stereotypes. Charles de Lint is another author who writes stories set in or inspired by other cultures well. Again - he does his homework.

i think this is just stating the obvious though - if you want to write about a specific topic, then you are best off researching this topic. I don't think it amounts to any form of soft racism I would just consider it poor research to lean on readily available stereotypes - which would lead to poor writing. I don't actually know the race of almost any authors that I read, because frankly it is irrelevant to my enjoyment of the story, what I care about is whether or not it feels authentic - which it won't unless well researched.

I'll just quote Neil Gaiman on this:

I was reading a book (about interjections, oddly enough) yesterday which included the phrase “In these days of political correctness…” talking about no longer making jokes that denigrated people for their culture or for the colour of their skin. And I thought, “That’s not actually anything to do with ‘political correctness’. That’s just treating other people with respect.”

Which made me oddly happy. I started imagining a world in which we replaced the phrase “politically correct” wherever we could with “treating other people with respect”, and it made me smile.

You should try it. It’s peculiarly enlightening.

I know what you’re thinking now. You’re thinking “Oh my god, that’s treating other people with respect gone mad!”

I think we can agree that treating human beings with the fundamental respect they deserve is not political correctness gone mad, and I think it's slightly disingenuous for anyone to claim those of us concerned about free speech just want to poke fun at others. That said I find cultural comedy hilarious. Paul Chowdry the standup comic is fantastic at this but unfortunately only gets away with it because of the colour of his skin, if he was white I think he would struggle to find an audience nowadays.

So no - it isn't ridiculous to suggest that perhaps the story Anthorn wants to tell isn't his/hers/theirs to tell. Most authors/writers, if we're honest with ourselves, can admit that there are stories (and/or genres) that we cannot tell because it's not ours to tell.

I have carefully considered what you and others have written and I would still argue it is a ridiculous viewpoint. I would agree with "the story Anthorn wants to tell is culturally difficult because of his/her experiences. Most authors/writers, if we're honest with ourselves, can admit that there are stories and or genres that we may struggle to tell authentically because of our own cultural history".

Perhaps the bones of Anthorn's story can be transposed into another setting/milieu that would have less cultural appropriation and tokenism landmines for him/her/them to navigate.

Or perhaps what Anthorn really needs to do, go back to the drawing board to do the research etc needed to understand the culture he wishes to set his story in and the ethnic community that he wants to base his POC characters on.

Anthorn has every right to tell the story in the way he wants, he has every right not to research and produce an unauthentic work, just as you have the right not to read it. But to determine that certain stories aren't for certain people to tell seems odd, who arbitrates these decisions? Where do we draw the line?

Lastly as I see it has recieved a few comments - why does it matter if the Western woman is more intelligent than the Non Western woman? Surely this only matters if the reason is BECAUSE she is a non western woman - otherwise you risk merely attributing meaning to something that has no real import. Identity politics where none are intended.

My advice @anthorn would be to tread carefully and do your research well, but don't be afraid to tell a story outside of your own cultural heritage and don't be afraid to tell a story from a different cultural POV. After all, we write about spaceships and wizards, clones and robots, gods and demons and we have no direct experience of those.

Fundamentally I believe in creative freedom and the right to create whatever you want to create, after all writing is merely our thoughts formed on paper. We don't have any compulsion not to offend nor would I want any. I think it has been attributed to Voltaire but I firmly hold "I may disagree with what you say but I will fight to the death for your right to say it"

@The Bluestocking I think we may have to agree to disagree on this but I do appreciate your viewpoint and taking the time to post. Also I just wanted to say a thankyou about the Feminism (Werewolves and Vampire) thread as I appreciated your lengthy post which gave me a lot to think about. I will respond at some point I just read it at work.

 

[SilentRoamer]

-- if you have specialist knowledge, or have done intensive research, for instance.

Again I fundamentally disagree that one either has to have experience of or be incredibly well researched in order to write a story. It fails to appreciate that some things can't really be researched. Just to give an example - I have watched a lot of documentaries, watched films, read books and talked to soldiers who have been engaged in active conflict. Does this make me better placed to write about soldiers than anybody else - i don't really think so, after all everyones individual experience is different.

One of the things this does, IMO, is force a bloc identity on a cultural or racial group - it homogenises their experiences unfairly. In the West we are radically different from one another - I expect this holds out for every race, color and creed.

I just don't think generally sweeping observations or expectations are useful - for me it feels too much like identity politics.

 

[The Bluestocking]

@SilentRoamer We can debate identity politics and why I think nobody can escape them. And also why it's not a bad thing but a necessary one, especially for POC and women. But not in this post.

Re the feminist (werewolves and vampires) post - you are very welcome!

@anthorn If you are determined to push ahead with this WIP, I have one other piece of advice (besides the one on doing a lot more research and being a lot more specific): Read Tananarive Due and Nnedi Okorafor's books. Especially Nnedi Okorafor. They write African-focused/African-inspired/Afropunk Science Fiction, Fantasy, and Horror which have deserved every single award won. Look at how they portrayal POC (especially black women), how they root their story worlds in a very specific African country's culture. That is how it's done and done well.

 

[Phyrebrat]

As you know, we live in a hyper sensitive world these days so we've got to be extra careful when we write, talk, walk, look.

Wait... Regardless of everything you wrote after this statement, however logical (and to a certain extent, it was); your problem is nothing to do with sensitivity.

It's authenticity. If you don't know the area you're writing about in depth, you'll spend most of your time researching and not writing.

The bottom part of North Africa? If you haven't even a name for the area you're already at a loss.

I'm with Toby; yes you can write this, but it's a very hard sell for two reasons; factual research, and writing from a place without the benefit of white privilege. We (non POC) are so used to our privileges that it comes across as entitlement. Can you unthink that? Unexperience it? It's very hard without personal experience.

I think though, that you're approaching this from the wrong angle. Sensitivity is not the issue. 'Othered' people aren't 'sensitive' but like all of us, do not like assumptions from a white-centric person's point of view placed on them.

Also, from 1849 onwards, the AST was very much complicated by nations pulling out of the slave trade, so the time period you're using as inspiration is very complex.

pH

 

[The Bluestocking]

What @Phyrebrat said.

 

[svalbard]

I must be thick. I had to google the meaning of POC.

 

[Brian G Turner]

I think we're kind of getting tangled up here: anthorn didn't ask for permission, just for feedback - which so far has been that what he plans could be a bad idea without better research. It's entirely up to anthorn as to what he does with that feedback.

 

[The Bluestocking]

I think we're kind of getting tangled up here: anthorn didn't ask for permission, just for feedback - which so far has been that what he plans could be a bad idea without better research. It's entirely up to anthorn as to what he does with that feedback.

We have all done our duty by duly pointing this out to him and it's up to him whether to step in that rather large pothole we've pointed out... or not.

Also, it has suddenly occurred to me that I may be the only POC commenting on this thread...

 

[SilentRoamer]

@SilentRoamer We can debate identity politics and why I think nobody can escape them. And also why it's not a bad thing but a necessary one, especially for POC and women. But not in this post.

Yeah no problem I don't want to derail the thread. As I said I am happy to respectfully disagree with you.

@anthorn I think there is some good advice in this thread, research is always a good thing but don't be scared to push the story where you want it to go. There will always be those that take offence, and minimizing offence is not necessarily the job of the author, provocation isn't always unintended. That said, if you are using cultural analogues to the point that clear comparisons can be drawn, then you have a duty, not to others, but to your own work, to ensure a level of authenticity you can be happy with.

 

[The Bluestocking]

There will always be those that take offence, and minimizing offence is not necessarily the job of the author, provocation isn't always unintended. That said, if you are using cultural analogues to the point that clear comparisons can be drawn, then you have a duty, not to others, but to your own work, to ensure a level of authenticity you can be happy with.

I'm going to disagree with the term "those who take offence".

We are not "those who take offence". We are people. Period. Treat POC and women (both on and off the page) like people instead of just another convenient set of stereotypes and tropes. Treat our cultures as interesting in their own right instead of using them as an exotic backdrop. Then you'll get to the authenticity you need faster while writing a story with depth and power.

POC and women readers are NOT "taking offence" because we are "hyper sensitive". We keep getting labelled as such by White authors when we are critical of THEIR novels and stories that clearly show that they aren't interested enough to learn about our cultures and our ethnic/national histories before incorporating them into their stories. This disrespect has been going on for centuries and we are, quite frankly, tired of it. As @Phyrebrat pointed out: "Sensitivity is not the issue. 'Othered' people aren't 'sensitive' but like all of us, do not like assumptions from a white-centric person's point of view placed on them."

White male authors seldom make the effort to understand things from our point of view, writing off our reactions/responses off as "taking offence" and being "hyper sensitive" and "politically correct". These terms demonstrate just how privileged a person is that he/she/they would be dismissive of POC and women's input/responses/critiques.

Sure, authors have the right to write whatever they wish. But all too often, White authors in particular forget just how much power a story holds and how it shapes how the general public see the world around them. And if you're a White author writing about people who have been historically "othered", colonised, and treated as less-than-human by White colonialists, settlers et al, and you don't do your homework, you'll run a heavy risk of perpetuating toxic stereotypes. Ditto for male authors who fall back on lazy stereotypes about women as a shorthand for writing female characters.

And it won't be you who will be affected - it will be the POC and women who'd continue to suffer from the inequality, bigotry, and racism (and sexism) that your fiction helps reinforce in the wider culture.

We're not asking you to pander to us. We're asking you to be respectful of the cultures and peoples that you're using to power your fiction. Especially when it's not your own.

Just keep that in mind when you write about POC and women and you'll have a better chance of avoiding tokenism and cultural appropriation in your writing.

 

[SilentRoamer]

I'm going to disagree with the term "those who take offence".

Disagree as much as you want but invariably works dealing with culturally sensitive topics are likely, or more likely to offend than material that doesn't.

We are not "those who take offence". We are people. Period.

I'm sorry I gave you the impression that I think POC/women aren't people, although I really don't know where you got that from my previous posts.

POC and women readers are NOT "taking offence" because we are "hyper sensitive". We keep getting labelled as such by White authors when we are critical of THEIR novels and stories that clearly show that they aren't interested enough to learn about our cultures and our ethnic/national histories before incorporating them into their stories.

Sweeping generalizations work both ways and are never helpful. I would argue that misrepresentations are probably present across all authorial classes/races/genders and are not a specific issue that can be attributed to "white male authors" as some monolithic bloc. I would agree it behooves an author to do research before writing about anything. Also I'm not sure why you quoted "hyper sensitive" as this is not something I have written and would rather it were not attributed to me.

Sure, authors have the right to write whatever they wish. But all too often, White authors in particular forget just how much power a story holds and how it shapes how the general public see the world around them.

I will say it again, sweeping generalizations based on the color of an authors skin or their cultural heritage are not helpful.

White male authors seldom make the effort to understand things from our point of view, writing off our reactions/responses off as "taking offence" and being "hyper sensitive" and "politically correct". These terms demonstrate just how privileged a person is that he/she/they would be dismissive of POC and women's input/responses/critiques.

Again please stop generalising "white male authors", this type of identity politics is offensive and doesn't progress an argument about cultural sensitivity and respect.

Sure, authors have the right to write whatever they wish. But all too often, White authors in particular forget just how much power a story holds and how it shapes how the general public see the world around them.

I will say it again, sweeping generalizations based on the color of an authors skin or their cultural heritage are not helpful.

And it won't be you who will be affected - it will be the POC and women who'd continue to suffer from the inequality, bigotry, and racism (and sexism) that your fiction helps reinforce in the wider culture.

We're not asking you to pander to us. We're asking you to be respectful of the cultures and peoples that you're using to power your fiction. Especially when it's not your own.

I don't think anywhere did I say "dont be respectful" and I clearly advised that research into any topic you are writing about is something to be lauded as validating to ones own work. You have no ownership of cultures, cultures are fluid and changing much like languages and all cultures can be traced back and heritages learned and re-learned.

I think you are far too readily accepting of an "us and them" mentality, so all POC are one monolithic bloc - along with all whites existing in a monolithic bloc and the world is far too nuanced and far too complicated for simple identity politics of us and them.

Anyway I really didn't want to get into an identity politics discussion on this thread so I suggest we agree to disagree and leave the comments where they are. I think @anthorn can get a good glimmer of the problems he may face.

 

[The Bluestocking]

Again please stop generalising "white male authors", this type of identity politics is offensive and doesn't progress an argument about cultural sensitivity and respect.

Well then - now you (and @anthorn ) know a little of how POC and women feel, don't you? The shoe on the other foot doesn't feel so great, does it?

And if you think I'm portraying women and POC as a "monolithic bloc" because I pointed out that we are, in general, tired of the stereotypes, tokenism, and tropes... well, I'm not. We are a wildly diverse range of human beings but we have all, at one point or another in our lives, faced one or more of the following:

• Racism
• Bigotry
• Colonialism
• Sexism
• Misogyny

And if @anthorn wants to avoid tokenism and cultural appropriation, he would do well to keep this in mind even if he hasn't personally experienced it.

 

[Brian G Turner]

And ... on that note, as this discussion is turning into an argument, I'll close the thread and hope that anthorn has all the feedback he needed from us.