Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2017) (WITH SPOILERS!)

[soulsinging]

I just don't think that their number is anywhere that high ('hordes'). Yes they caused some harm when they started insulting cast members online but I don't think they have the power to sway the opinion of the masses one way or another. And I don't think that it's what they're trying to do.

This is why trolls are dangerous. Not because they unleash a tidal wave of negativity online, but because they are driving people to stop listening to each other.

I find it interesting that the first several responses to this article are mostly emphatic denials that trolls or propaganda could possibly sway real life opinions.

Also, the harm isn't just that trolls insulted cast members online, those trolls inspired otherwise normal and real people to engage in coordinated and ongoing harassment of specific people, to the point those people had to basically go underground. We can quibble over how many of them were real people versus trolls, but the article makes a strong case that some of the vitriol was aided and abetted by trolls stoking the flames and encouraging people to act out with strength in numbers. Maybe you don't consider that swaying opinions, but I think that up-to-that-time normal people verbally abusing a young actress into disappearing seem like they've been swayed by SOMETHING. It's also odd to say trolls have caused people to stop listening to each other but outright dismiss the possibility that they emboldened a larger number of people to engage in the harassment campaign than otherwise might have participated.

I'd also argue that anyone responding as in your example is probably just as likely a Russian troll themselves. They take both sides of hot button issues and espouse extremist positions to inflame the debate and drive people to extremes. Propaganda doesn't turn feminists into misogynists. What it does is manipulate emotions, so nostalgia for movies that "don't get made like they used to" becomes wondering why that is becomes suspecting it's because they're all busy pandering to someone other than true fans becomes something is being taken from me because they don't like me becomes I have to defend myself from this new enemy. It's not about turning people's minds in a 180, it's about nudging people from reasonable dissatisfaction into finding divisive scapegoats to blame for that dissatisfaction.

 

[Phyrebrat]

Well said. @soulsinging

pH

 

[KGeo777]

Corporations have proven to be so much more a problem than trolls. I see the trolls as like the groundlings in the Globe theater. While the wealthy people occupied the higher seats and boxes, the poor people were in the pit. If they didn't like something, they threw rotten tomatoes at the stage. It's not pretty but that's art. Art has to have public acceptance or it is something else. Disney represents the most corporate of the 6 big corporations. And if you don't like what they do, it's your fault. The customer is no longer right.

There is no army of Star Wars trolls waiting to take down society. It's the executives in Wall Street boardrooms who are more likely to do that.

 

[soulsinging]

In that case I’d have to insist they were saying something they didn’t feel, or face the thought of my thesis crumbling

In all seriousness though, I’m surprised TLJ gets such a hard time from SW fans whereas TFA was an inferior film inasmuch as it being a retread of ep4.

Rey’s agency is complex in itself and it (if not her mission - depending on Luke) doesn’t rely on patriarchy to be told. I agree the Canto Bight side mission is a pointless one, it reminds me of the whole asteroid and space slug sequence in ESB which I find tedious in the extreme as well as narratively redundant.

If Finn and Rose’s side quest had been undertaken by, say, Poe and Finn, and was devoid of the love thread, I wonder if it’d have received the same amount of derision.

Going back to my previous post, and the idea of SJWs; the fanboys better hope my prediction for Poe and Finn is not true. From TFA onwards, I’ve been expecting them to fall in love. Their behaviour in both films suggests it - or perhaps scriptwriters who give Male Heterosexual characters lines like; ‘You got a boyfriend? You got a cute boyfriend?’ (Finn to Rey, aboard the Falcon TFA), are so oblivious to what they’re writing as to make all the character’s motivations unclear.

Man, I hope you're right if for no other reason than to watch heads explode. I actually thought Fin and Rey had pretty good chemistry in TFA and was disappointed they were never onscreen together in TLJ. So Fin and Rose's detour did annoy me rather greatly, but you make a good point... would I have been as annoyed if it had been Fin and Poe? I don't know, maybe not. But as you point out, they had good chemistry of their own.

I think the chemistry between Han, Luke and Leia was a huge part of the originals, and the chemistry among Fin, Rey and Poe in TFA reminded me of that. Nothing in TLJ did because they were virtually never together again. In fact, some of the most memorable moments of TLJ for me were the handful of minutes Poe and Fin were scheming together.

Maybe you're right and they missed a real opportunity for some Top Gun-style ambiguity in space

 

[The Big Peat]

Man, I hope you're right if for no other reason than to watch heads explode. I actually thought Fin and Rey had pretty good chemistry in TFA and was disappointed they were never onscreen together in TLJ. So Fin and Rose's detour did annoy me rather greatly, but you make a good point... would I have been as annoyed if it had been Fin and Poe? I don't know, maybe not. But as you point out, they had good chemistry of their own.

I think the chemistry between Han, Luke and Leia was a huge part of the originals, and the chemistry among Fin, Rey and Poe in TFA reminded me of that. Nothing in TLJ did because they were virtually never together again. In fact, some of the most memorable moments of TLJ for me were the handful of minutes Poe and Fin were scheming together.

Maybe you're right and they missed a real opportunity for some Top Gun-style ambiguity in space

Top Gun's ambiguous?

Anyway... I think you've just hit one of my problems with TLJ dead on in a way I never could articulate. They took all the good chemistry from the first film and chucked it in cold storage. I probably would have been happier about Fin and Poe taking the detour compared to Fin and Rose because of that chemistry.

(The fact Poe wouldn't have been there for one of the worse cases of Dumb Chief I've seen (and I watch a decent amount of 80s action) is a definite side bonus here).

 

[Toby Frost]

Well, I finally got around to watching this, and it was a bit of a weird mess. Somehow, the entire war for the galaxy seemed to boil down to a chase between about six big spaceships, which never became terribly exciting.

- The villains are poor. Hux is a rubbish character and the writers don't seem to know what to do with him. He's neither fearsome nor funny. Ren isn't intimidating and I don't really care about his possible redemption*. Snoke (silly name) was a weaker version of the Emperor.
- The Jedi stuff was mildly more interesting than most Jedi stuff, although it is starting to feel like tired schtick to me. In particular, Luke appearing as a ghost and Leia being immune to hard vaccuum (did that actually happen?) felt like a step too far. Even Gandalf couldn't do that. The battle for Kylo Ren's soul isn't terribly interesting. (Personally, I find the idea that the villains can be "saved" unconvincing, as the Dark Side would simply attract actual psychopaths who can't be reached morally.)
- The Laura Dern/Poe subplot was a real mess. I suppose it was an attempt to create some kind of argument as to how the rebels should proceed, and to grow Poe's character, but it just didn't work for me.
- Rey and Finn continue to be likeable and watchable. Their mission to the casino planet was one of the points where TLJ "felt like Star Wars". Rose is a fine character and decently acted, but she feels slightly redundant (like Poe) - which makes me think that the cast has just got too big.
- I have got so, so tired of people whose first response to the existence of a film is to make it political by screaming "Stop making it political!" Likewise some people just need to face the uncomfortable truth that a new film is going to have substantial differences in tone and content to a film made 40 or more years ago. Seriously, don't expect a new Star Wars film to feel like a 1978 Star Wars film, let alone a John Wayne Western or a 1950s war movie. How hard is this to grasp?

So overall, I thought it was rather weak, especially compared to Rogue One or even Solo.


*Quick point on this. Redeeming someone like Ren or Vader would, logically, mean them stopping their crimes and still taking responsibility for their actions, probably in a court of law. For all the fuss that's made in these films about arch-villains turning from the Dark Side, the lowest scumbag in Mos Eisley cantina has done far less evil than any of the grandees of the Empire whose souls seem to matter so much. At very best, a "rehabilitated" Vader could expect to spend the rest of his life in the space equivalent of Spandau prison.