My Fourth Try: The Quest for Elvenwood

[Lafayette]

Hopefully I have incorporated most of the suggestions given.

In a warm kitchen, in a warm wooden house, in Airizay a sturdy chair squeaked in protest as a chubby Penoit Seysounné leaned back, sipping sweet red wine, and taking a light breath. “As usual that was beautiful, Vair. I especially enjoyed the interlude of the third movement. Most troubadours play it more robust, but your delicate pianissimos I think are better.”

“Merci, Penoit,” replied Vair as the twelve-string’s resonance gracefully faded into the afternoon spring air with the chirping robins and sparrows. “It is truly gratifying to display my artistry to someone that sincerely appreciates it.”

Penoit chuckled, “That is because I have taste and good ears.”

The old white-haired gentleman studied his ebon haired friend. “Oui, I know. Those and your passion are the reasons why I could make you a great guitarist.”

Ah, here we go again. Penoit waved his arms, pushed his hair from his blue eyes and quietly exclaimed, “No, no, mon ami,” I am forty-seven years old, too old to learn anything new.”

Vair’s hazel eyes sparkled and dimmed. “Oui, oui. I have heard all that before, Penoit. The truth is you’re too lazy, complacent, and are in a rut. You need glory.”

“Glory! Bah! What good is glory? Will it feed me? Will it keep me warm? Besides that glory implies danger. I want nothing to do with danger. ” Laughing, he paused, ‘If you weren’t, mon ami, I would punch you in the nose for suggesting such a bad idea.”

“No you wouldn’t,” retorted the old man laughing. “You are a Troobinay. Troobinays are pacifists and you, mon ami are a true Troobinay.”

Penoit’s pretended anger disappeared, “Merci, that is good to know. Now what about your guitar?”

“Penoit, you have outdone yourself this time. It is perfect,” said the man in the satin green caressing the guitar. “The lows are nice and mellow, just the way I like them. The trebles are bright and chiming, but what I really like is I can hear the octaves. However,” he added sadly, “I cannot accept your perfect guitar.”

“What! You do not have the money?” asked Penoit raising a black eyebrow.

“Come, come Penoit!” said the troubadour waving his hands. “You have hurt my feelings. I am Vair Rohnonay the greatest troubadour on all three continents! I am paid in the purest gold. Silver never lines my pockets. Here is my purse.” With that he tossed the purse unto the table spilling gold. Penoit glance at the spillage noticing there was ten times the amount he had asked for.”

Then what is the problem?” asked Penoit.

“The problem: the coronation of Prince Roulaunne will be my last public appearance after eighty-nine years of traveling and performing. Prince Roulaunne has promised me that when he is crowned king, he will give me a chateau and a generous pension for my retirement.”

“That doesn’t sound like a problem.”

“Ah, mon ami, there is a catch. The good prince has also informed me that his coronation will be the most august event of the century. It will be beyond perfection. He has implied if my performance is not also beyond perfection, there will be no chateau or pension. I love performing, traveling, meeting new people and places. My limbs have become stiff and sore from traveling so much. They burn too often when it is cold. The last time I had a cold it took me three months to shake it off. My performance must be something spoken of with yearning centuries long after I am dead and gone. Not for my glory, but for the Kingdom of Gaulance. My performance, my art must be beyond perfection. Penoit, mon ami, your guitar must also be beyond perfection.”

“If your performance must be beyond perfection, then play my guitar,” snapped, Penoit. “Vair, you are one of my dearest friends you can’t let me down this way. If you fail to play my twelve-string at the coronation Duc Eldounne will deny me access to his trees. I need his trees they have the finest woods for guitars. Without those woods my standards will suffer and I will lose patrons. I will become a pauper.”

Sadness came to Vair Rohnonay’s long face. “I’m sorry to hear that Penoit. Truly, I am, but your masterpiece is not beyond perfection. I will go to Reneer. I hear he is creating many chefs-d'oeuvres.”

“Now, you have hurt my feelings. Am I not the greatest luthier in all Gaulance?”

“Your title is being challenged by Reneer.”

“Bah,” sneered, Penoit. “Reneer is too young to have calluses and blisters like I have. Now tell me what is the problem and I will fix it.”

“Je ne sais. There is something lacking,” answered the old troubadour in deep thought.”

“Perhaps it is not loud enough. I can put on a higher bridge.”

“No, it’s loud enough.”

“I know it’s the tone,” said Penoit spinning his finger in the air. “You want a guitar with a different voice. I’ll make you one with ladder bracing.”

Rohnonay shook his head. “I don’t like ladder bracing it is too punchy and a bit rude for my taste.”

Rude! I don’t make rude. Penoit tapered his thin mustache. “I can adjust it so that it will be mellower.”

“No, no. The bass runs will sound muddy. It will lose its clarity. Like I said I like hearing the octaves.”

“I’ll put a maple top on it instead of spruce,”

“No, no that will make it too bright,”

“D’accord, I will make it of mahogany.”

“Then it will sound woody. Woody is too earthy. My music must be heavenly,”

“My customers say my guitars are heavenly,” answered Penoit trying to smother his pique.

“That is not the issue either.”

The brows of Penoit’s face arched. “I still don’t understand mon ami. What other issue is there?”

“The issue, Penoit,” added Rohnonay gently, “Your perfect guitar has no magic. My guitar must be beyond the question: is there a greater guitar? I need magic.”

Penoit sat dazed and sapped of vitality.

In the stunned quiet came a rap at the open kitchen door. A man came bustling in covered with sawdust and the smell of wood. “Pardon, Monsieur Penoit,” he said, “I have wood for your fireplace and of course, wood for your creations.”

Scurrying over to the kitchen fireplace, he dropped the wood with a loud clatter; brushing the dust off his clothes he noticed Penoit’s dejected expression. “Hey, hey, mon ami, Butterball, why the long mouth on the round face?”

Ignoring the jest fire came to Penoit’s coal blue-black eyes. Standing, he adjusted his pale yellow shirt around his pudginess, straightened his small mustache and then with a stiff arm, he shot out a finger pointing at Rohnonay with disdain curling from his lips, “This man, Cairto, this man, this man of culture claims that my perfect guitar is not good enough for the coronation of Prince Roulaunne de Renoc.” With a sneer he added, “He says he says he needs magic.”

Cairto laughed, “Then why don’t you make him a guitar of Elvenwood? Elvenwood, after all, is magic.”

“Cairto, get out of here with your superstitious nonsense,” growled Penoit.

“Elvenwood? No, no stay,” interjected Rohnonay with excitement. “I remember hearing of it in my travels. Tell us about it, Cairto.”

Cairto rolled his eyes nostalgically. “When I was a little pisser sitting at the fireplace on a rainy night. Grand-mamma told me many wondrous things. Elvenwood she said would give a musician power over Ords and Trodds if he made his instrument of it.”

“Power? What kind of power?” Asked Rohnonay seriously.

Penoit sat back and rolled his eyes upward in disgust.

Cairto answered eagerly, “She said music from it would melt the stone heart of an Ord. The Ord would be so enchanted he would give you all his gold. As for the Trodds, she said, if a Trodd heard just one strand of music they would cry with remorse and release you from any bondage no matter what.”

“Fascinating.” intoned Rohnonay.

“Oui, fascinating,” repeated Penoit with zero emotion. “Ords and Trodds. More fairy tales.”

Rohnonay turned and scowled at Penoit. Penoit scowled back. “Pay no attention to the old lemon sucker, Cairto.” said Rohnonay. “Does the wood have any other power?”

Cairto became more thoughtful, “Oui the power of expression. Elvenwood bonds with the musician giving him or her more ease of deeper expressions whether it is of joy, anger, sadness, or love. The wood also gives him greater finger dexterity.”

“Now that is fascinating,” answered Vair. “I’m always looking for better ways of expression. So how does the musician bond with the Elvenwood?”

Cairto stopped a moment in thought. “According to Grandmamma the musician can bond with the magic if he cuts down the tree himself and then makes the instrument.”

“Is there another way for a musician to bond with the instrument?” Asked the troubadour.

Cairto paused with seriousness. Penoit almost laughed, ......

 

[Brian G Turner]

All I can say is that the same issues stand as when you first put this up. You're now just rushing, rather than trying to sit down and take time to understand the feedback you've been given.

 

[The Judge]

Well done for putting greater motivation behind the men's argument. I think this is a very positive move. However, simply adding the threats to their wellbeing/livelihood isn't enough by itself unless you then use these threats, by taking us more into their thoughts and fears as the argument develops. I'd urge you to let go of the omniscient POV which really isn't doing you any favours here and get into the mind and emotions of Penoit more.

I think part of the problem is you're simply tinkering with the scene when in reality you need to rip it up and start afresh. At present you're too much in love with all the dialogue, which to my mind needs to be pruned drastically. Look at every single line and ask yourself whether it's necessary to understand the story or advance the plot or show character -- the best dialogue does all three at once, and to my mind far too many of your lines don't do any of them. I'd also urge you to introduce more movement into the scene, as it's far too static until Cairto enters.

I wouldn't usually do this, as I'm conscious that a writer's characters and plot are his own and no matter how carefully one proceeds, it's taking a liberty to play around with them, but in the hope it better shows what I mean regarding my comments here and in your other thread, I've very quickly taken the opening 400+ words of this scene and re-written them in my voice:

The twelve-string’s resonance faded gracefully into the warm air of the kitchen.

Penoit sighed. “Vair, that was beautiful, as always.” He reached across the table to the bottle of sweet wine and re-filled their glasses. “The delicate pianissimos you gave to the third movement were incomparable. You truly are the greatest troubadour in all Gaulance.”

“In all three continents,” said Vair, with a touch of asperity in his voice, and Penoit mentally kicked himself for forgetting the old man’s vanity. Then Vair smiled and Penoit forgave him, as he always did. “But thank you, mon ami. Far too often I have to play for those with no understanding, so it is gratifying to display my artistry to someone who sincerely appreciates it.”

“So what do you think of the guitar?”

“Penoit Seysounné, you have outdone yourself.” Vair caressed the bright wood. “Never have you produced such a fine instrument. The lows are mellow, the trebles bright and chiming, and I can clearly hear the octaves. It is sublime...”

Penoit leaned back in his chair and sipped his wine, a glow of pride coursing through him, but a small grasping voice wondered whether he should have sought a greater price for the guitar.

“... but it is not good enough.” Vair continued.

Penoit almost spat out the wine. “What?”
​

As I say, it's my voice, not yours, but can you see how I've quickened the pace? I've dumped all the extraneous dialogue which isn't taking us anywhere at this point -- if any of it is important to the plot, you can always bring it in later. I've also got rid of the descriptions of the two men which add nothing to our understanding of them, while at the same time putting in some touches that show us their separate characters. I'm not saying this is a perfect opening, but to my mind it is a more engrossing, and we get to the crux of the matter, that the guitar isn't good enough, in half the time.

I think that if you can do something similar in removing the dead wood from your version and putting us firmly in the scene, it will immeasurably improve it. However, I do wonder whether you'd be better advised to leave this chapter alone for a while. Actually, it might be an idea to leave the book alone for a bit, and go and do something else altogether, and then come back to this in a month or two with a fresh mind and vision.

By the way, I don't think you've taken part in the Writing Challenges here on Chrons, have you? They are incredibly good for teaching us how to write concisely yet coherently, and I think would be a good exercise for you in trimming word count. The current 300 worder still has a week to go, so why don't you enter? It will also help if you study the 300 worder stories that have been put up in previous months, so you can see how different members can achieve so much in so few lines.

 

[tinkerdan]

You have some very good pieces to work with--however it still needs work.
I think that this may involve issues of show and tell.
To highlight that you might look at your own and then what Judge has done and consider that there is something in your choices to hinder the showing of the narrative and keeps you grounded in a telling mode that pushes the reader off to a distance and requires you to explain things; such as.

Penoit’s pretended anger disappeared, (incidentally this is not a dialogue tag and probably requires a period before the dialogue.)

The reader should be able to see this and you would be able to say perhaps.
Penoit's tone softened.
or
lightened.

Another incidental::
Ironically the POV might see or sense the tone soften rather than know the pretended anger disappeared; however such arguments at this point might muddy and confuse things.

It is a good start in the right direction however.
The camera sees the audio pickup records.
Perhaps it can't easily smell, taste, and feel.
But you don't have a balance between what's available.
If you are taking this camera type view you should use it to its fullest extent and show the reader some details to bring the conversation to life and perhaps some extra insight into the character through body language. That's not to say that talking heads can't work, they just aren't working for me here and now.

 

[Shorewalker]

I would echo what has been said and add a little bug-bear of my own...

If you're introducting a character, I feel it would be better to do a swift thumbnail description of them at an approriate point...then leave the adjectives at home. Constant references to blue/black/hazel/white are a little jarring.

 

[CTRandall]

I know this is your 4th posting of this excerpt but don't let the continued criticism get you down! Revision, revision, revision is absolutely necessary to all creative work (even improvising requires practice).

You are definitely moving in the right direction. Try picking up one of your favourite authors and reading through a single scene a couple of times, each time considering a different element, e.g. POV, use of small actions and sounds to show emotional states and how the author focuses on character traits, conflict points and plot. I think you'll come back to your writing with new eyes.

 

[Lafayette]

I know this is your 4th posting of this excerpt but don't let the continued criticism get you down! Revision, revision, revision is absolutely necessary to all creative work (even improvising requires practice).

You are definitely moving in the right direction. Try picking up one of your favourite authors and reading through a single scene a couple of times, each time considering a different element, e.g. POV, use of small actions and sounds to show emotional states and how the author focuses on character traits, conflict points and plot. I think you'll come back to your writing with new eyes.

Thanks for the encouragement and I will do as you recommend, but I will pick two or three including some like Sanderson that I'm not familiar with to get a better feel.

 

[Toby Frost]

I've not read all the versions of this piece, but I agree with a lot of what's been said in this thread.

My main question is whether this ought to be two scenes. The rejection of the guitar seems to me to be to be a really big thing, especially for an expert maker of guitars (and from a trusted friend), and to my mind that's where the break ought to be. (Or perhaps once he's left alone. I've had bad news before but been fine about it until later, when it sinks in). Perhaps then Penoit could (briefly) have a crisis of confidence and wander the streets or whatever his equivalent would be. I could imagine that the response would be quite emotional, given that he is a master-craftsman and probably regards guitar-making as his life (he doesn't seem to have a family, either). The closest non-work equivalent I can think of is romantic rejection. He might think "What's wrong with my work? What's wrong with me? Am I losing it?" and all sorts of insecure or angry things along those lines.

Then, in scene 2, I would have him come to his senses (hung over?!) and wonder what he can do to salvage things. Then I'd have him discover the elvenwood story, perhaps dismiss it as rubbish but secretly be intrigued, and slowly come up with a plan to get hold of some. I realise that making this into 2 scenes is hardly shortening it, but I think it would be more powerful like that.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

I'm coming at this blind, having not viewed the earlier pieces. Hopefully it's helpful.

Hopefully I have incorporated most of the suggestions given.

In a warm kitchen, in a warm wooden house, in Airizay a sturdy chair squeaked in protest as a chubby Penoit Seysounné leaned back, sipping sweet red wine, and taking a light breath.Oh, boy. That's some opening sentence. I don't dislike it as I think it probably sets a voice, but it does demand a lot of me as an opener and I'm not quite sure where I should focus. Also, it's mostly telling as opposed to showing, but that depends on what narration you're using - if you're wanting to go oldie-world, I think it's fine. If you're wanting a more modern feel, I think it might not work. “As usual that was beautiful, Vair. I especially enjoyed the interlude of the third movement. Most troubadours play it more robust, but your delicate pianissimos I think are better.”

“Merci, Penoit,” replied Vair as the twelve-string’s resonance gracefully faded into the afternoon spring air with the chirping robins and sparrows. “It is truly gratifying to display my artistry to someone that sincerely appreciates it.”

Penoit chuckled,that's a dodgy dialogue tag... can you chuckle a reply. Or do you chuckle and then reply? “That is because I have taste and good ears.”

The old white-haired gentleman studied his ebon haired friendThis is all telling, and it's out of point of view. I never think of myself as a slightly knackered, 40 odd year old woman. I think of myself as Jo. “Oui, I know. Those and your passion are the reasons why I could make you a great guitarist.”

Ah, here we go again. Penoit waved his arms, pushed his hair from his blue eyes and quietly exclaimedCan you quietly exclaim?, “No, no, mon ami,”rogue " I am forty-seven years old, too old to learn anything new.”

Vair’s hazel eyes sparkled and dimmed.I'm really struggling to know where I should be focusing on - or whose point of view is the lead one. “Oui, oui. I have heard all that before, Penoit. The truth is you’re too lazy, complacent, and are in a rut. You need glory.”

“Glory! Bah! What good is glory? Will it feed me? Will it keep me warm? Besides that glory implies danger. I want nothing to do with danger. ” Laughing, he paused, ‘If you weren’t, mon ami, I would punch you in the nose for suggesting such a bad idea.”The other problem is nothing is happening. There's a long winded conversation from two people about music that I haven't been shown, and I don't care about either of the people. Either get to the bones of this discussion much, much quicker, or consider is there a stronger way to show what's actually happening here, and why it should intrigue us enough to read on.

“No you wouldn’t,” retorted the old man laughing. “You are a Troobinay. Troobinays are pacifists and you, mon ami are a true Troobinay.”

Penoit’s pretended angerSee, I haven't seen that pretended anger above. Crossed arms, a flick up of the chin, pointing, these are all the things that SHOW anger. Showing keeps us in a scene, it helps us to visualise it. When I now get told someone was angry, even pretending to be, above, I get pulled out to reframe my thoughts. disappeared, “Merci, that is good to know. Now what about your guitar?”

“Penoit, you have outdone yourself this time. It is perfect,” said the man in the satin greenwhy does this matter? Does it matter if I see the same clothes as you do, or the same colours? If there is something that matters, mention that, but not everything - or we can't notice what you need us to. But, also, if you want to get some description in, that's fine - but make it part of the piece. Walk us through it. Have his sleeve caress the guitar and show how it does, how it lightly falls. But when you use that sort of thing - make it work harder. What else could it show us? Could it be a slightly frayed sleeve, indicating poverty, or a gaudy but cheap one, indicating showmanship. Or a thick fabric. Tell us what matters about this detail: make it work for you. caressing the guitar. “The lows are nice and mellow, just the way I like them. The trebles are bright and chiming, but what I really like is I can hear the octaves. However,” he added sadly, “I cannot accept your perfect guitar.”

Personally, I think things liven up here. Do you need the stuff before?

“What! You do not have the money?” asked Penoit raising a black eyebrow.See how you could have got the sleeve to work here. A little thought above about the weight of the fabric leaving a clean line, and we see that he does have the money, or vice versa. John Jarrold says every line, every sentence, every word etc etc has to be there to move teh story or character on.

“Come, come Penoit!” said the troubadour waving his hands. “You have hurt my feelings. I am Vair Rohnonay the greatest troubadour on all three continents! I am paid in the purest gold. Silver never lines my pockets. Here is my purse.” With that he tossed the purse unto the table spilling gold. Penoit glance at the spillage noticing there was ten times the amount he had asked for.”

Then what is the problem?” asked Penoit.

“The problem: the coronation of Prince Roulaunne will be my last public appearance after eighty-nineAnd here I got pulled out again. He must be in his nineties? I didn't know that. If I should have picked it up, I didn't, possibly because of the other information. Or, possibly because it hasn't been shown to me. Where's the old fingers, straining for strength? The bent over bones? The aches and pains? years of traveling and performing. Prince Roulaunne has promised me that when he is crowned king, he will give me a chateau and a generous pension for my retirement.”

“That doesn’t sound like a problem.”

“Ah, mon ami, there is a catch. The good prince has also informed me that his coronation will be the most august event of the century. It will be beyond perfection. He has implied if my performance is not also beyond perfection, there will be no chateau or pensionHe's worried about that in his nineties? How long do these people live. If it's long, then tell us so we know. But if it isn't, how practical is this worry?. I love performing, traveling, meeting new people and places. My limbs have become stiff and sore from traveling so much. They burn too often when it is cold. The last time I had a cold it took me three months to shake it off. My performance must be something spoken of with yearning centuries long after I am dead and gone.This is more believable as a motivation - if he'd wanted a pension and nice retirement, he'd have taken it before now. Not for my glory, but for the Kingdom of Gaulance. My performance, my art must be beyond perfection. Penoit, mon ami, your guitar must also be beyond perfection.”

“If your performance must be beyond perfection, then play my guitar,” snapped, Penoit. “Vair, you are one of my dearest friends you can’t let me down this way. If you fail to play my twelve-string at the coronation Duc Eldounne will deny me access to his trees. I need his trees they have the finest woods for guitars. Without those woods my standards will suffer and I will lose patrons. I will become a pauper.”

Sadness came to Vair Rohnonay’s long face. “I’m sorry to hear that Penoit. Truly, I am, but your masterpiece is not beyond perfection. I will go to Reneer. I hear he is creating many chefs-d'oeuvres.”

“Now, you have hurt my feelings. Am I not the greatest luthier in all Gaulance?”

“Your title is being challenged by Reneer.”

“Bah,” sneered, Penoit. “Reneer is too young to have calluses and blisters like I have. Now tell me what is the problem and I will fix it.”

“Je ne sais. There is something lacking,” answered the old troubadour in deep thought.”rogue ". Also, this is telling - show it. If you are in his point of view, show us the thoughts. If Penoit's, show how someone looking deep in thought appears.

“Perhaps it is not loud enough. I can put on a higher bridge.”

“No, it’s loud enough.”

“I know it’s the tone,” said Penoit spinning his finger in the air. “You want a guitar with a different voice. I’ll make you one with ladder bracing.”

Rohnonay shook his head. “I don’t like ladder bracing it is too punchy and a bit rude for my taste.”

Rude! I don’t make rude. okay, so we are in Penoit's point of view. I think this needs to be clearer. Penoit tapered his thin mustache. “I can adjust it so that it will be mellower.”

“No, no. The bass runs will sound muddy. It will lose its clarity. Like I said I like hearing the octaves.”

“I’ll put a maple top on it instead of spruce,”

“No, no that will make it too bright,”

“D’accord, I will make it of mahogany.”

“Then it will sound woody. Woody is too earthy. My music must be heavenly,”

“My customers say my guitars are heavenly,” answered Penoit trying to smother his pique.How? Show us. Does he drag in a deep breath, tighten his muscles, count to ten. Whatever. The reader can make the connection if you show well enough.

“That is not the issue either.”

The brows of Penoit’s face arched.This is out of Point of view, he can't see his own face. “I still don’t understand mon ami. What other issue is there?”

“The issue, Penoit,” added Rohnonay gently, “your, if you're running the sentence on, but is your might be clearer. Your perfect guitar has no magic. My guitar must be beyond the question: is there a greater guitar? I need magic.”

Penoit sat dazed and sapped of vitality.

In the stunned quiet came a rap at the open kitchen door. A man came bustling in covered with sawdust and the smell of wood.Better, I can imagine that. It draws me in. “Pardon, Monsieur Penoit,” he said, “I have wood for your fireplace and of course, wood for your creations.”

Scurrying over to the kitchen fireplace, he dropped the wood with a loud clatter; brushing the dust off his clothes he noticed Penoit’s dejected expressionNow you're in the woodman's point of view . “Hey, hey, mon ami, Butterball, why the long mouth on the round face?”

Ignoring the jest fire came to Penoit’s coal blue-black eyes. Standing, he adjusted his pale yellow shirt around his pudginess, straightened his small mustache and then with a stiff arm, he shot out a finger pointing at Rohnonay with disdain curling from his lips, “This man, Cairto, this man, this man of culture claims that my perfect guitar is not good enough for the coronation of Prince Roulaunne de Renoc.” With a sneer he added, “He says he says he needs magic.”

Cairto laughed, “Then why don’t you make him a guitar of Elvenwood? Elvenwood, after all, is magic.”

“Cairto, get out of here with your superstitious nonsense,” growled Penoit.

“Elvenwood? No, no stay,” interjected Rohnonay with excitement. “I remember hearing of it in my travels. Tell us about it, Cairto.”

Cairto rolled his eyes nostalgically. “When I was a little pisser sitting at the fireplace on a rainy night. Grand-mamma told me many wondrous things. Elvenwood she said would give a musician power over Ords and Trodds if he made his instrument of it.”

“Power? What kind of power?” Asked Rohnonay seriously.

Penoit sat back and rolled his eyes upward in disgust.

Cairto answered eagerly, “She said music from it would melt the stone heart of an Ord. The Ord would be so enchanted he would give you all his gold. As for the Trodds, she said, if a Trodd heard just one strand of music they would cry with remorse and release you from any bondage no matter what.”

“Fascinating.” intoned Rohnonay.

“Oui, fascinating,” repeated Penoit with zero emotion. “Ords and Trodds. More fairy tales.”

Rohnonay turned and scowled at Penoit. Penoit scowled back. “Pay no attention to the old lemon sucker, Cairto.” said Rohnonay. “Does the wood have any other power?”

Cairto became more thoughtful, “Oui the power of expression. Elvenwood bonds with the musician giving him or her more ease of deeper expressions whether it is of joy, anger, sadness, or love. The wood also gives him greater finger dexterity.”

“Now that is fascinating,” answered Vair. “I’m always looking for better ways of expression. So how does the musician bond with the Elvenwood?”

Cairto stopped a moment in thought. “According to Grandmamma the musician can bond with the magic if he cuts down the tree himself and then makes the instrument.”

“Is there another way for a musician to bond with the instrument?” Asked the troubadour.

Cairto paused with seriousness. Penoit almost laughed, ......

Okay, sorry lots of bold, but I think it comes down to three things:

Better point of view discipline. I'm not sure you can't switch between them, since I sense an authorly tone in there, but I think it needs to be done with more precision and thought behind it. Someone like Louis de Bernieres is really good at shifting point of view, and something like Jonathon Strange and Mr Norrell is good at the distant voice management of a scene.

Show, don't tell. I think this is what Brian means about rushing the scene. Not all the time, by any means, but more than you are now.

Being sure of the crux of the scene, which is the end and the Elvenwood and is very good. But you need to get to that quicker, and with more engagement. Personally, I'd ditch the first third of the scene and murder those darlings.

Good luck with it!

 

[Lafayette]

The Judge, post: 2217405, member: 22627"]Well done for putting greater motivation behind the men's argument. I think this is a very positive move. However, simply adding the threats to their wellbeing/livelihood isn't enough by itself unless you then use these threats,[/QUOTE]

In the next chapter Rohnonay does follow through on his threat which comes in at the second to last paragraph of Chapter 1. Even so I now know that this isn't exactly what you're talking about. I picture Gaulance and especially Airizay (the ducdom) not being ruled by ill tempered rulers practicing decapitation or slavery. Troobinays are not favored by their fellow Gaulancians, but are tolerated. Currently I'm at a lose on how to keep my vision and still incorporate your more experienced urging. If I go your way it radically change the whole novel.

[QUOTE I'd urge you to let go of the omniscient POV which really isn't doing you any favours ...

What POV would you suggest?

I think part of the problem is you're simply tinkering with the scene when in reality you need to rip it up and start afresh. At present you're too much in love with all the dialogue,

Guilty. I'm trying to show that Penoit knows his craft and is trying to please Rohnonay. I'm also trying to show readers what amazing instruments guitar are and why they should love them. It looks like I may have to abandon these ideas

I wouldn't usually do this, as I'm conscious that a writer's characters and plot are his own and no matter how carefully one proceeds, it's taking a liberty to play around with them,

I feel the same way, but sometimes one needs to take drastic measures with a hard-heads and I'm a hard-head. This is what I've looking for. Your example is better than mine.

I've also got rid of the descriptions of the two men ...

I always thought that this was important in that it gives the reader who these people are.

By the way, I don't think you've taken part in the Writing Challenges here on Chrons, have you? .

No, I haven't, but I'm looking into it.

 

[Lafayette]

I know this is your 4th posting of this excerpt but don't let the continued criticism get you down! Revision, revision, revision is absolutely necessary to all creative work (even improvising requires practice).

Thanks for the encouragement.

I learned a quite a while ago that the secret to good writing is edit, edit, edit, rewrite, rewrite, rewrite. It is a good thing I like writing or I'd be insane by now, because it is work.

You are definitely moving in the right direction. Try picking up one of your favourite authors and reading through a single scene a couple of times, each time considering a different element, e.g. POV, use of small actions and sounds to show emotional states and how the author focuses on character traits, conflict points and plot. I think you'll come back to your writing with new eyes.

I will follow your suggestion.

Thanks.

 

[Lafayette]

My main question is whether this ought to be two scenes. The rejection of the guitar seems to me to be to be a really big thing, especially for an expert maker of guitars (and from a trusted friend), and to my mind that's where the break ought to be. (Or perhaps once he's left alone. I've had bad news before but been fine about it until later, when it sinks in). Perhaps then Penoit could (briefly) have a crisis of confidence and wander the streets or whatever his equivalent would be. I could imagine that the response would be quite emotional, given that he is a master-craftsman and probably regards guitar-making as his life (he doesn't seem to have a family, either). The closest non-work equivalent I can think of is romantic rejection. He might think "What's wrong with my work? What's wrong with me? Am I losing it?" and all sorts of insecure or angry things along those lines.

I like your idea your idea of making it a more emotion experience for Penoit. Incidentally, in a later chapter, Penoit is humbled by another luthier.

 

[The Judge]

In the next chapter Rohnonay does follow through on his threat which comes in at the second to last paragraph of Chapter 1. Even so I now know that this isn't exactly what you're talking about. I picture Gaulance and especially Airizay (the ducdom) not being ruled by ill tempered rulers practicing decapitation or slavery. Troobinays are not favored by their fellow Gaulancians, but are tolerated.

When I use the term threat, I don't mean that it has to be something physically terrible, just that whatever is the motivation behind their argument has to be important to them and you must show it. A person who is desperate to win the village marmalade contest is going to be apoplectic if she can't get the bergamots she needs for her new recipe, even though the lack of them means nothing to anyone else. But it's not enough for her to think "Damn, I really need those bergamots" and then forget about them for the rest of the scene. If she's anxious and worried because she really needs to win and this is her only chance, it's going to prey on her mind and it will come out in everything she says and does.

Currently I'm at a lose on how to keep my vision and still incorporate your more experienced urging. If I go your way it radically change the whole novel.

No one wants you to lose your vision regarding your plot, setting and characters -- at this stage we simply don't know enough about any of them to say if they need tweaking or changing, and that is where beta readers and perhaps eventually a development editor would come in. The feedback you're getting isn't concerned with the story itself, but how you're telling that story. At present you're like someone who has taken up woodwork and wants to craft a magnificent writing bureau, but you've not yet mastered all the tools you need so what you've actually made is a very rough and ready desk which wobbles a good deal. This is one reason why I think you need to work on something else for the moment, including the Challenges here on Chrons -- you need to gain more experience using those tools, how they work, which is the best one for the job and so on.

What POV would you suggest?

I don't pretend to be an expert on POV, but to be frank I think you're better off not trying to get into the intricacies of it at present. Writing in close third is now de rigueur in fantasy, it avoids the risk of head-hopping which is frowned upon, and most importantly it's easy to write. Be Penoit and write everything as if you are him -- you're not a camera watching over his shoulder, you're an actor playing him. If need be, write a draft in first person and then change all the "I"s to "he"s and so on.

I'm trying to show that Penoit knows his craft and is trying to please Rohnonay. I'm also trying to show readers what amazing instruments guitar are and why they should love them. It looks like I may have to abandon these ideas

You don't have to abandon them, but nor can you let them loose to witter on as long as they want, certainly not here in the first chapter. The back and forth when Penoit offers to change the guitar is a great idea, but to my mind you drown it in excess verbiage. You need to learn to cut and cut drastically.

I always thought that this [physical description] was important in that it gives the reader who these people are.

Telling us that an old man has white hair doesn't give us anything, I'm afraid. Giving descriptions early can be helpful, and even important if the character doesn't follow the norm (or perceived norm) amongst your readership, because a sure way to upset a reader is to leave it too late and then give a description wholly at odds with what was imagined. But Jane Austen gives no physical description of Fitzwilliam D'Arcy beyond that he's tall -- nothing else is needed, as we fill in the blanks according to our own ideas of male beauty. What she does do is describe his character, because what a person looks like rarely tells a reader who he is. We want to know if he's vain or arrogant or timid or serene, not what colour eyes he has. But you shouldn't tell us, you should show us by what he does.

Regarding the show not tell, which Shorewalker has also pointed out in your other thread, there are posts about it in The Toolbox, along with a host of other helpful hints about all aspects of writing, which I think would give you some more ideas about how better to tell your stories.

 

[Brian G Turner]

A potential problem from seeing this ending is that the opening chapter may be in danger of being seen as an infodump - 2 men sit around, talk, simply to explain background information to the reader.

Now, you could get away with this - putting guitar-making at the centre of everything is unique and interesting and alone might be enough to catch a reader's attention.

However, a couple of pointers:

Firstly, if a chapter exists to provide information, then there are possibly more interesting ways to do so. You may be able to get away with what you've already done - I'm sure I've mentioned wondering at similarities with Guy Gavriel Kay, who has similar scenes. However, I would suggest you ask yourself if there are more interesting ways to do this, that would help allow a little more "show" and a little less "tell" - ie, see one of the characters trying different guitars and becoming increasingly frustrated (perhaps at a fair, or in an artisan quarter), for example, instead of simply sat around telling us he is frustrated? For example, when does he get the idea that he *must* get to Elvenwood? If the first chapter helps establish that, it may help heighten the draw of the current scene.

Secondly, one reason you may be struggling especially with POV use is that you're not really thinking of your main character's emotional journey - their internal trials and tribulations which become externalized through their actions. In which case, I'd suggest reading Save the Cat by Blake Synder, which is ostensibly about screenwriting but whose advice is equally applicable to the novel - and there is an ebook version!

Getting inside a character's head is hard, and being challenged how to rethink scenes to make them - potentially! - stronger, can seem daunting. If you go in that direction, then you may find yourself becoming pleasantly surprised. But at the end of the day, all we can do is provide our own personal opinions, and necessarily you will only take what is the most useful for you. Whatever you do, best of luck with it.

 

[Lafayette]

Firstly, if a chapter exists to provide information, then there are possibly more interesting ways to do so. You may be able to get away with what you've already done - I'm sure I've mentioned wondering at similarities with Guy Gavriel Kay, who has similar scenes.

I'm a big fan of Guy Gavriel Kay, however I don't recall you mentioning him. I have a few of his books. Could you tell me which book you're thinking of?

 

[The Big Peat]

I really wish you'd posted a longer excerpt in Writing Group. Given how so much of the advice revolves around pacing, its really difficult to speak with surety without seeing the whole thing.

I think this is a better piece and it shows you're listening and have taken good steps to addressing the criticism and incorporating it into your own work and voice; I also think there's still a bit to go.

I would still prefer less dialogue. Example:

“The problem: the coronation of Prince Roulaunne will be my last public appearance after eighty-nine years of traveling and performing. Prince Roulaunne has promised me that when he is crowned king, he will give me a chateau and a generous pension for my retirement.”

“That doesn’t sound like a problem.”

“Ah, mon ami, there is a catch.

Penoit's line in the middle could be easily removed. If you want a pause in the middle to replace the line - understandably so in my opinion - it could be Vair stroking his chin, or pulling a face, or knuckling his moustaches, or any of the many gestures humans do when emotional. That would give us more insight into his character; Penoit's line gives us no insight into his. It doesn't advance the plot either.

Condensing all exchanges like this into big long speech from whoever is speaking would make the scene read better; more pace, more clarity. It sounds just as realistic to my ears at least. To paraphrase The Judge, dialogue should either advance the story, reveal character, or entertain us. I don't think lines like Penoit's there don't do any of it. I think you can remove a lot of them without effecting your tone/style/voice/vision.


At which point I must ask an important question - what do you think is your style/vision, what do you want it to be? I feel acutely aware that some of the recommendations may be clashing with it. The purpose of critiques is to help the author achieve the best possible version of their style and vision, not the best possible story according to each critiquer; I think we're all aware of that. But without knowing precisely what you're aiming for, it can be a little hard for both parties. If you're finding it hard to incorporate the advice while getting what you want, I think it would help to know what you want.

My guess is you're looking to do something like Smith of Wootton Major; a fairy tale set in an idyllic time, driven by a sense of wonder and discovery rather than hard dangers. That sounds awesome to me. But doing so would require running counter-clockwise to what we expect in some places, so we'd need to know that's the goal. And my guess probably is utterly wrong!


I've only just noticed how much Tell rather than Show you use. "Sadness came to Vair Rohnonay’s long face." (I like that piece of tell though, nice voice to it). "Penoit’s pretended anger disappeared". "answered Penoit trying to smother his pique." A more sparing hand would yield better prose, to my mind at least. Ditto the "sadly" and "gently" attached to dialogue. You have some great showing in there - "The brows of Penoit’s face arched." is my favourite line. More of that and less of the Tells would probably improve the piece while, again, I think, retaining your voice.


On the PoV thing:

I will argue all day and all night for Omniscient still being useful, still being used, still being acceptable and still being capable of greatness. If you want it, use it.

It is difficult to use to its fullest effect, but that doesn't mean you can't achieve it or shouldn't try.

But!

When using Omniscient for a book, one can always zoom in and out with the camera, going from Omniscient Narrator to Close Behind The Eyes and back again as you will. Indeed, that to me is one of the great strengths of it as a choice.

And I would argue that when not using one of the specific strengths of Omniscient over Close - describing something no character can see, adding narrative voice, describing both character's thoughts at once - it is probably best to take the camera in.

There is an argument that after the first few framing sentences that you are not using any of them. In which case, why not take the camera in and look through Penoit's eyes? Alternately, make better use of Omniscient and take the time to pause and juxtapose their thoughts.


And here is my biggest beef with the whole scene.

I do not get anyone's thoughts. I get their gestures and words, but I do not get their thoughts. As Brian said in the last thread, I think - the big advantage of books over anything other form of storytelling is the amount of depth you can go into with characters' thoughts. Its part of why I love reading. And its not here.

Now, maybe your vision is to avoid paragraphs full of characters musing and reflecting on their situation. If that is so, say so and I will shut up about it.

But if it isn't, then I think the piece would benefit enormously from adding it in. Go and re-read some of your favourite books and see what part it plays. Killing off some of the extraneous dialogue and adding in more character thought would go a long way to making this look like we all think it could (assuming it fits your vision).


An idea that just struck me that might be useful.

Go find your favourite dialogue scene of two people talking from your favourite movie. Turn it into a written scene, using the characters' dialogue, describing their facial expressions and vocal tones rather than going "They looked sad" "He said gently", and add in some paragraphs of what the characters are thinking. When they pause in conversation, that'd be a good time to have a paragraph of thought.

I feel like this would be good for you in terms of practicing the techniques people are pointing at and letting you see how to flesh out a conversation like this. Again - I cannot stress this enough - this assumes this fits into your vision.


Finally -

If this seems like a lot, it is because I'm interested and thinking hard about the piece.

If it seems specific and nitpicky, it is because you're getting closer and the closer you get the more the little pieces stand out.

If it seems hard, its because learning how to put on those final coats of polish is one of the hardest things to learn to do in writing (imo at least), particularly when you're doing it to a scene you've been going at for ages and where every line is tightly woven into each other (in your head at least) and its seemingly impossible to know where to yank a thread out without undoing the whole thing. (Although we've hopefully given you some good advice there)

So please don't be discouraged.


Let us know what your vision is, take your time to think through possible changes and maybe do some dry runs with other pieces to get the feel of a scene like this right, then come back. And please post the whole thing in Writing Group next time!

 

[Shorewalker]

Apologies to Lafayette for the complete aside, but...what is the Writing Group?

 

[HareBrain]

what is the Writing Group?

Writing Group? There is no "writing group" open to members with a hundred posts. What a ridiculous rumour! The Big Peat clearly got mixed up there.

 

[Shorewalker]

LOL

I think I need to add nine (now eight) entries to the limerick thread!

Does a link magically appear when I make my 100th post? Are there drums? Angels singing?

 

[The Judge]

I don't think Limericks counts for word count purposes! And no drums or angels singing, unfortunately, just another link on the Writing Forums menu, but HB might do his Bunny Hop Dance if you ask really nicely.