My Fourth Try: The Quest for Elvenwood

[Shorewalker]

OK. I'll settle for bunny hops, then.

 

[Lafayette]

I really wish you'd posted a longer excerpt in Writing Group.

I was told that it was too early for me to enter the Writing Group and that I was rushing.

Given how so much of the advice revolves around pacing, its really difficult to speak with surety without seeing the whole thing.

I think this is a better piece and it shows you're listening and have taken good steps to addressing the criticism and incorporating it into your own work and voice;

Glad that you noticed.

I also think there's still a bit to go.

Agreed.

I would still prefer less dialogue. Example:

“The problem: the coronation of Prince Roulaunne will be my last public appearance after eighty-nine years of traveling and performing. Prince Roulaunne has promised me that when he is crowned king, he will give me a chateau and a generous pension for my retirement.”

“That doesn’t sound like a problem.”

“Ah, mon ami, there is a catch.

Penoit's line in the middle could be easily removed. If you want a pause in the middle to replace the line - understandably so in my opinion - it could be Vair stroking his chin,...

I will do that and I like your suggestion.

Condensing all exchanges like this into big long speech from whoever is speaking would make the scene read better; more pace, more clarity.

One of the reasons I haven’t done this is because I don’t want the reader to get lost in a long paragraphs. I also believe it’s easier on the reader’s eyes.

The Judge, dialogue should either advance the story, reveal character, or entertain us. I don't think lines like Penoit's there don't do any of it. I think you can remove a lot of them without effecting your tone/style/voice/vision.

I agree with you and The Judge and is one of the many things I’m trying to accomplish.

At which point I must ask an important question - what do you think is your style/vision, what do you want it to be? I feel acutely aware that some of the recommendations may be clashing with it. The purpose of critiques is to help the author achieve the best possible version of their style and vision, not the best possible story according to each critiquer; I think we're all aware of that. But without knowing precisely what you're aiming for, it can be a little hard for both parties. If you're finding it hard to incorporate the advice while getting what you want, I think it would help to know what you want.

As for style, I’m a little bit on the fence. There is a part of me that wants to be a writer. Why? I like words and the use of them, although I have learnt over time that a lot of words does not make a writer. My other reason: I want to say something. I not only want to move the reader, but also make him/her think. As I’m getting older I’m discovering I have more things to say.

On the other side of the fence I want to be a storyteller. I believe I lean more in this direction. In my last year in community college in an intergraded studies class I took up storytelling. To my surprise, I discovered I could move listeners with sadness and laughter. I was elated and humbled at the same time.

One of my goals is to emulate (not copy) Tolkien, Donaldson, and G. G. Kay in my writing. I loved the way Tolkien and Donaldson made their worlds so vivid that you can reach out and touch a tree bark. I love the way, Donaldson made Thomas Covenant so life like that I wanted to yell at him, “Get your act together you moron!” Also I liked the way he challenged me intellectually. With Kay it was how he had me feeling sad for a minor character and the unusual way he employed words. I never read or heard anyone use the phrase ‘having congress” for sexual intimacy.

My vision is varied, but is primarily is for Penoit to get out of his complacent rut and to grow as a person, (I also want the others characters to grow and/or achieve). I want Penoit forced into this, because he not willing to do this not just because he’s lazy, but also because of his unbelief in magic. In the second chapter, Duc Eldounne gently threatens Penoit with loss of access to his trees by selling the privilege to a competitor who makes cheap quality guitars.

My guess is you're looking to do something like Smith of Wootton Major; a fairy tale set in an idyllic time, driven by a sense of wonder and discovery rather than hard dangers. That sounds awesome to me. But doing so would require running counter-clockwise to what we expect in some places, so we'd need to know that's the goal. And my guess probably is utterly wrong!

Unfortunately, I’m unfamiliar with Smith of Wootton Major. But you are correct in that Airizay is more than less an idyllic country.

I've only just noticed how much Tell rather than Show you use. "Sadness came to Vair Rohnonay’s long face." (I like that piece of tell though, nice voice to it).

I’m glad you liked that. This is another item I’m working on.

"Penoit’s pretended anger disappeared". "answered Penoit trying to smother his pique." A more sparing hand would yield better prose, to my mind at least. Ditto the "sadly" and "gently" attached to dialogue.

I will either rework this or eliminate it.

"The brows of Penoit’s face arched." is my favourite line. More of that and less of the Tells would probably improve the piece while, again, I think, retaining your voice.

I think this line happened by accident. Needless to say, I will study this.

On the PoV thing:

I will argue all day and all night for Omniscient still being useful, still being used, still being acceptable and still being capable of greatness. If you want it, use it.

It is difficult to use to its fullest effect, but that doesn't mean you can't achieve it or shouldn't try.

But!

When using Omniscient for a book, one can always zoom in and out with the camera, going from Omniscient Narrator to Close Behind The Eyes and back again as you will.

And I would argue that when not using one of the specific strengths of Omniscient over Close - describing something no character can see, adding narrative voice, describing both character's thoughts at once - it is probably best to take the camera in.

Alternately, make better use of Omniscient and take the time to pause and juxtapose their thoughts.

I favor Omniscient POV for the reasons you have stated plus, Penoit is not present in all of the scenes in the book.

And here is my biggest beef with the whole scene.

I do not get anyone's thoughts. I get their gestures and words, but I do not get their thoughts. As Brian said in the last thread, I think - the big advantage of books over anything other form of storytelling is the amount of depth you can go into with characters' thoughts. Its part of why I love reading. And its not here.

Now, maybe your vision is to avoid paragraphs full of characters musing and reflecting on their situation. If that is so, say so and I will shut up about it.

I’m not against musing dialogs I just didn’t think they were called for. I was led to believe that actions speak louder than words. What would be the point if Penoit is thinking I don’t believe in magic? How would the other character know if Penoit doesn’t speak?

But if it isn't, then I think the piece would benefit enormously from adding it in. Go and re-read some of your favourite books and see what part it plays.

I will study and see if I can incorporate this.

Killing off some of the extraneous dialogue and adding in more character thought would go a long way to making this look like we all think it could (assuming it fits your vision).

I’ve been working on this. You may have noticed that I have been taking parts from two or three paragraphs and incorporated them into one and then proceeded to pare it some more.

Go find your favourite dialogue scene of two people talking from your favourite movie.

I’m not a movie or much of a tv viewer.

Finally -

If this seems like a lot, it is because I'm interested and thinking hard about the piece.
If it seems specific and nitpicky, it is because you're getting closer and the closer you get the more the little pieces stand out.

If it seems hard, its because learning how to put on those final coats of polish is one of the hardest things to learn to do in writing (imo at least),

You have said a mouth full and yes is hard, but in the long run it will be rewarding.

So please don't be discouraged.

Thank you. I will keep this in mind as I blunder to the top.

And please post the whole thing in Writing Group next time!

Do mean the whole chapter or the whole book?

 

[Toby Frost]

Can I ask whether this book is going to be standard novel length, ie 70,000 words plus?

The reason I ask is that I think you are missing a real opportunity by covering the events in the excerpt you've posted so quickly. For me, it's happening much too fast. For the Stradivarius of this setting to be told by its greatest virtuoso that his work isn't acceptable is a huge event in Penoit's life, and hence this novel (and probably the musical history of this world). I think it needs much more of a response and, if it got that response, it would be much more convincing and Penoit would be more sympathetic.

Which isn't to say that Penoit should attempt suicide or smash up his workshop in a rage. This doesn't have to be "dark": personally, I find fake grimness and over-emoting rather childish. But I think it needs to be treated as something of great importance: partly because it is going to draw the reader into sympathising with Penoit and wanting him to succeed, and partly because it is the thing that (presumably) will trigger the quest that the book is about. People - especially craftsmen - don't typically go on epic quests without a very strong need to.

At the very least, I think, the conversation after "Penoit sat dazed and sapped of vitality" needs to be rewritten to reflect Penoit's shock and disappointment. As it is, instead of those feelings being reflected in how Penoit responds, immediately Cairto comes in to give them an excuse to tell the reader all about Elvenwood. That lack of change of tone really weakens the piece for me. Even having a scene later on where Penoit wonders what to do won't entirely solve the problem, because there's still a feeling for me that something ought to change in Penoit immediately after the bad news, even if it's just him telling Rohnonay that he needs time to think about everything and hinting that he should go. For a man as obviously sociable as Penoit, that would probably be enough.

Anyway, I'm getting very close to repeating what I said earlier, but it's that lack of change of tone that feels wrong here for me.

 

[Lafayette]

Thank you for your comments and suggestions.

Can I ask whether this book is going to be standard novel length, ie 70,000 words plus?
My first draft is over 209,423 words and have so far trimmed it to 191,346 words. I am still working on trimming it. If I can get it down to 90,000 I'll be happy.

For me, it's happening much too fast. For the Stradivarius of this setting to be told by its greatest virtuoso that his work isn't acceptable is a huge event in Penoit's life, . I think it needs much more of a response and, if it got that response, it would be much more convincing and Penoit would be more sympathetic.

But I think it needs to be treated as something of great importance: partly because it is going to draw the reader into sympathising with Penoit and wanting him to succeed, and partly because it is the thing that (presumably) will trigger the quest that the book is about. People - especially craftsmen - don't typically go on epic quests without a very strong need to.

You are right. For some stupid reason I didn't think about this. It appears I came up with a good idea, but didn't follow through. Well, I'm working on it now.

That lack of change of tone really weakens the piece for me. Even having a scene later on where Penoit wonders what to do won't entirely solve the problem, because there's still a feeling for me that something ought to change in Penoit immediately after the bad news, ....

You have a point here, but right now I don't know what to do about it. My vision is to have Penoit forced into going on the Quest against his will, because even though he's desperate he has no idea of what to do about it. An idea has just come to me. Your idea of desperation I can employ in allowing Penoit to be talked into going on a Quest for Elvenwood.

For a man as obviously sociable as Penoit, that would probably be enough.

Penoit is social, however he a homebody.

The reason I'm in a hurry is because I was setting a publishing date for March. It appears that is not realistic unless I want to publish trash and that goes against my French temperament.

 

[The Big Peat]

I was told that it was too early for me to enter the Writing Group and that I was rushing.

Oops! Shows how much attention I pay at times.

One of the reasons I haven’t done this is because I don’t want the reader to get lost in a long paragraphs. I also believe it’s easier on the reader’s eyes.

Understandable. At the same time, long exchanges of dialogue also tire out readers because there's more to follow, and the long paragraphs make it easier to keep track. Its a balancing act, one of those where everyone's taste is a little different, and different authors where each do each to different standards.

In general though, not having all the dialogue by quick back and forth is usually a good idea.

Skipping the style/tone thing for a moment as it'll be long but Smith of Wootton Major is a fantastic short fairy tale by Tolkien and I think it'd be right up your alley as a reader, if nothing else.

I’m not against musing dialogs I just didn’t think they were called for. I was led to believe that actions speak louder than words. What would be the point if Penoit is thinking I don’t believe in magic? How would the other character know if Penoit doesn’t speak?

I used to believe that and do that. A lot of people told me otherwise, so I changed, and I think my prose is stronger for it. I think yours would be too.

And the biggest reason I can give for that is it doesn't matter what the other characters know, its what the reader knows. Its about showing things to the reader for their enjoyment and enlightenment.

A lot of the time, imo at least, showing what the character is thinking *and* showing what they are doing about those thoughts, brings more enjoyment and enlightenment.

It also helps break up the dialogue and improve the pace. Pure dialogue is too much. Showing the characters' thoughts keeps the story moving while providing a break.

A good example might be Chapter 2 of The Last Light of the Sun by GGK if you have it. There there's two brothers who could totally talk through all the details they consider and things they see, but where dialogue use is actually quite sparing, with most of it being in the thoughts of one of the brothers, observing and considering.


And by whole, I meant whole chapter. That said, it does help to know its a full novel and currently a long one. I really agree with Toby that, given the projected length, something of this import is moving really fast. I think you want to get to the crux of the situation quick, but dwell on it - if that makes sense. That's your punch. The bit about going on a quest for Elvenwood? At what point in FotR do we even hear about Frodo leaving The Shire?

As for style, I’m a little bit on the fence. There is a part of me that wants to be a writer. Why? I like words and the use of them, although I have learnt over time that a lot of words does not make a writer. My other reason: I want to say something. I not only want to move the reader, but also make him/her think. As I’m getting older I’m discovering I have more things to say.

On the other side of the fence I want to be a storyteller. I believe I lean more in this direction. In my last year in community college in an intergraded studies class I took up storytelling. To my surprise, I discovered I could move listeners with sadness and laughter. I was elated and humbled at the same time.

One of my goals is to emulate (not copy) Tolkien, Donaldson, and G. G. Kay in my writing. I loved the way Tolkien and Donaldson made their worlds so vivid that you can reach out and touch a tree bark. I love the way, Donaldson made Thomas Covenant so life like that I wanted to yell at him, “Get your act together you moron!” Also I liked the way he challenged me intellectually. With Kay it was how he had me feeling sad for a minor character and the unusual way he employed words. I never read or heard anyone use the phrase ‘having congress” for sexual intimacy.

My vision is varied, but is primarily is for Penoit to get out of his complacent rut and to grow as a person, (I also want the others characters to grow and/or achieve). I want Penoit forced into this, because he not willing to do this not just because he’s lazy, but also because of his unbelief in magic. In the second chapter, Duc Eldounne gently threatens Penoit with loss of access to his trees by selling the privilege to a competitor who makes cheap quality guitars.

I'm not sure I follow what you mean by there being a difference between being a writer and being a storyteller.

I have to say, from what you're saying, I'm not seeing any reason why you shouldn't use a lot of Close PoV in your book (while still using Omniscient too). If you want to show Penoit growing as a person, a lot of Close would help bring out his personality and the changes. If you want to capture vivid wonder, Close can be effective too. I know GGK uses Close a fair bit as I'm sat here reading one of his books right now; I think Tolkien does. I'd say most authors do at some point. Right tool for the situation.

 

[Lafayette]

Oops! Shows how much attention I pay at times.

You're not the only one guilty of this.

Understandable. At the same time, long exchanges of dialogue also tire out readers because there's more to follow, and the long paragraphs make it easier to keep track.

I've gone back over this dialog and it has occurred to me that it is too long, hard on the eyes, and that the reader can get lost in that too. I think what I'll do is combine some of the dialog in one or two paragraphs.

Its a balancing act, ...

So true.

Skipping the style/tone thing for a moment as it'll be long but Smith of Wootton Major is a fantastic short fairy tale by Tolkien and I think it'd be right up your alley as a reader, if nothing else.

Where can I find this and is it a part of another book?

I used to believe that and do that. A lot of people told me otherwise, so I changed, and I think my prose is stronger for it. I think yours would be too.

And the biggest reason I can give for that is it doesn't matter what the other characters know, its what the reader knows.

A lot of the time, imo at least, showing what the character is thinking *and* showing what they are doing about those thoughts, brings more enjoyment and enlightenment.

It also helps break up the dialogue and improve the pace. Pure dialogue is too much. Showing the characters' thoughts keeps the story moving while providing a break.

I will keep this in mind.

A good example might be Chapter 2 of The Last Light of the Sun by GGK if you have it.

Another book to put on my Amazon wish list.

There there's two brothers who could totally talk through all the details they consider and things they see, but where dialogue use is actually quite sparing, with most of it being in the thoughts of one of the brothers, observing and considering.

And by whole, I meant whole chapter.

That sounds interesting.

That said, it does help to know its a full novel and currently a long one. I really agree with Toby that, given the projected length, something of this import is moving really fast. I think you want to get to the crux of the situation quick, but dwell on it - if that makes sense.

I'll have to study it some more, but it's beginning to make sense.

That's your punch. The bit about going on a quest for Elvenwood? At what point in LotR do we even hear about Frodo leaving The Shire?

Penoit leaves Airizay in chapter 3. I am thinking about making it happen sooner by cutting out some of the material in chapter 2.

I'm not sure I follow what you mean by there being a difference between being a writer and being a storyteller.

Over time I have unconsciously assume that writers are more interested in ideas or promoting a point of view and harder to understand. I'll put Emerson and James Joyse in this category. I can't stand either one. A storyteller is someone that tells stories like Lester Dent that wrote the Doc Savage novels. Yes, I found them entertaining, but they hold a candle to Tolkien or Kay.

I have to say, from what you're saying, I'm not seeing any reason why you shouldn't use a lot of Close PoV in your book (while still using Omniscient too). If you want to show Penoit growing as a person, a lot of Close would help bring out his personality and the changes. If you want to capture vivid wonder, Close can be effective too. I know GGK uses Close a fair bit as I'm sat here reading one of his books right now; I think Tolkien does. I'd say most authors do at some point. Right tool for the situation.

I will meditate on this.

I appreciate the fact that you gone out of your way to help me be a better writer/storyteller as Penoit would say, merci.

 

[The Big Peat]

My copy of Smith of Wootton Major was sold on its own, but its often sold with some of Tolkien's other short stories - have a search online and see what turns up.

Over time I have unconsciously assume that writers are more interested in ideas or promoting a point of view and harder to understand. I'll put Emerson and James Joyse in this category. I can't stand either one. A storyteller is someone that tells stories like Lester Dent that wrote the Doc Savage novels. Yes, I found them entertaining, but they hold a candle to Tolkien or Kay.

I understand a bit better now. For me, these two things aren't two seperate things, but are two poles at each end of the spectrum. Most of us are something of a writer, something of a storyteller, something of a poet too. I believe it is possible to strive to be as much of all of these things as possible.

 

[Lafayette]

I understand a bit better now. For me, these two things aren't two seperate things, but are two poles at each end of the spectrum. Most of us are something of a writer, something of a storyteller, something of a poet too. I believe it is possible to strive to be as much of all of these things as possible.

It certainly makes writing interesting. I'm glad there is that spectrum for it gives us more room or freedom to to tell and to express.

 

[Martin Gill]

I remember this from last time, and I think Brian is right. Last time you were bogged down in dialogue and we struggled to differentiate the characters, or sense any urgency or motive. I think the same criticism stands. I still like the concept - its got the possibility of being really magical - but as is you lose me too quickly in some (IMO) very stilted dialogue. I know everything doesn't have to be Joe Abecrobie down and dirty, but these guys don't talk like real people to my ear. Or if they do, they aren't people I can in any way relate to, and I'm a guitar player

Comments on the POV have already been made above, and I agree. A combination of your choice of POV and your descriptions distance me from the characters and age this piece so it reads like its almost Victorian in style. This may be deliberate, but its not grabbing me as it should.

 

[Lafayette]

I remember this from last time, and I think Brian is right. Last time you were bogged down in dialogue and we struggled to differentiate the characters, or sense any urgency or motive. I think the same criticism stands. I still like the concept - its got the possibility of being really magical - but as is you lose me too quickly in some (IMO) very stilted dialogue. I know everything doesn't have to be Joe Abecrobie down and dirty, but these guys don't talk like real people to my ear. Or if they do, they aren't people I can in any way relate to, and I'm a guitar player

Comments on the POV have already been made above, and I agree. A combination of your choice of POV and your descriptions distance me from the characters and age this piece so it reads like its almost Victorian in style. This may be deliberate, but its not grabbing me as it should.

I'm glad to hear from you and that you still have some interest. On and off I've been rewriting the first chapter and reading articles and watching youtube videos on POVs to get it in my thick skull. I'm trying to write in first person, but I still favor omniscient.

I'm surprised that you haven't run into any polite guitar players? Penoit and Rohnonay are gentlemen. You will not find either one picking his nose at the dinner table. However your statement, "but these guys don't talk like real people to my ear" has me curious. Can you be more specific?

If you think these two gentlemen are stilted and unreal maybe you will enjoy Lafayette. Lafayette is anything but. Perhaps I should post an exert featuring him. Would you like that?

 

[Brian G Turner]

I'm trying to write in first person, but I still favor omniscient.

Not sure why you think you need to write in First Person?

You can still write in Third Person Limited - which means writing from a single character perspective. That means you can put more of the character, thoughts, and tensions into the piece - as opposed to Third Person Omniscient which is often too much like a written commentary for watching a film.

 

[Lafayette]

Not sure why you think you need to write in First Person?

I believe I was misinterpreting some of the critiques. I thought when they said get inside Penoit's head they meant first person. I also got this impression when The Judge said, "I'd urge you to let go of the omniscient POV which really isn't doing you any favours here and get into the mind and emotions of Penoit more."

If you and the others are wondering do I only read these critiques once and go onto something else? The answer is no. I have gone back a number of times to see if I missed something and have found that I have. So please, don't think you all are wasting your time. I appreciate your time and effort.

 

[The Judge]

Sorry to have added to confusion, then. The bit you've quoted wasn't meant to suggest you write it in first person, rather I was urging you to give us those thoughts and feelings from Penoit within the close third POV structure.

I don't know if you've seen this thread of HareBrain's First-person present v third-person past, examples He's torn between writing in first present and third past for a particular novel. As you'll see, the latter really is very close to first person but one advantage is that's it's possible to stand back just a little if needed for narrative purposes.

 

[Lafayette]

Sorry to have added to confusion, then. The bit you've quoted wasn't meant to suggest you write it in first person, rather I was urging you to give us those thoughts and feelings from Penoit within the close third POV structure.

Sorry I misunderstood you. I will have to pay better attention in the future.

 

[Lafayette]

I don't know if you've seen this thread of HareBrain's First-person present v third-person past, examples He's torn between writing in first present and third past for a particular novel. As you'll see, the latter really is very close to first person but one advantage is that's it's possible to stand back just a little if needed for narrative purposes.

This one is actually confusing to me. I need to go back and read the comments for better understanding. I like the first person best, but don't think I can maintain it for my whole book which is why I'm sliding to third person limited.