Elves, Dwarves and Orcs Over Done?

Joe Loomis

New Writer with Dreams
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Hay all.

So what is everyone's opinions about the big three fantasy races. Are they so over done that readers have almost gotten board with them?

Or is the fact that every author has a different take on them enough too keep readers interested.
 
Depends what's done with them. It's the story that's the most important thing.
 
These races will never be overdone!!! Unless humans become so? (Meaning, they are staple races of fantasy, as are humans.) I enjoy seeing new races in fantasy - and the standard races re-thought. But fantasy without them? No thanks! :D





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I have something brewing involving these exact same fantasy races (won't be for a loooong time) so no I don't think they're OVER done. I just think they've just been type casted and could do with some breakout roles. ;)
 
I do marvel at how much mileage is made from the same three things myself. It does seem like wringing out every last ounce from those archetypes. I’m a hard sell on fantasy anyway but to that end:

If you look at them as tropes instead of characters you (one) might get better results as you can play or pervert the trope. That would really mitigate their ubiquity.

pH
 
True, I got two and a half books out a species evolved from giant lemmings.

I think the problem isn't so much that these creatures exist (although orcs are basically humans that it's morally OK to kill, like Germans in an old war film) but that they have become stereotypes of themselves. Every dwarf is now Scottish, for instance. So if people can include creatures like that and find something interesting to do with them, fine, but too often its just the recycling of a caricature.
 
(although orcs are basically humans that it's morally OK to kill, like Germans in an old war film)

Funny you mention that as I was thinking last night how much more interesting the Star Wars prequels would have been if instead of battle droids, the enemy had been organic or human. Droids were a reinvention of the orc ‘methodology’ you specify in that respect. After all how could an enlightened Jedi bounce round the Galaxy offing humans?

(Of course I might be overthinking; I also considered how more realistic Anakin & Padme’s relationship would’ve been if she’d reacted to his ‘I’m going to save you’ mentality as a bit ‘oo I married a stalker’ and begin to reject him, precipitating his fall.)

pH
 
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To be honest I only figured out that the stormtroopers weren't robots pretty recently. There's really not much to say about orcs, by definition: they're just thuggish, stupid people and have no redeeming qualities* (cue the inevitable "Ah, but if you'd read The Silmarillion" comments that always appear in discussions involving Tolkien). Dwarves seem to me to be the most interesting, because once you ditch the caricature of stumpy Viking Scotsmen, there's a lot of room for new ideas. I always liked Tad Williams' version, where the trolls (dwarves) were more like Eskimos who rode giant rams.

*I suppose it's been tried, but the usual result is that they become comical thuggish stupid people.
 
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Over and Under. Over because of the giant shadow they cast, Under because they're out of fashion and uncommon in new Trad publishing (although not unknown). They are definitely still usable though and tbh, I wish those looking to use them would go for it with huge sincerity rather than go for big trope twists that are a) rarely that original themselves b) often put attention more on the twist than the character/story

There's really not much to say about orcs, by definition: they're just thuggish, stupid people and have no redeeming qualities* (cue the inevitable "Ah, but if you'd read The Silmarillion" comments that always appear in discussions involving Tolkien).

*I suppose it's been tried, but the usual result is that they become comical thuggish stupid people.

YMMV but I got the impression there were a lot of Noble Savage Orcs out there, particularly in gaming.
 
To be honest I only figured out that the stormtroopers weren't robots pretty recently.

The original stormtroopers were clones, organic robots if you will.

I suppose it's been tried, but the usual result is that they become comical thuggish stupid people.

A good example of orcs not being thuggish stupid people but rather a misunderstood one is Morgan Howell's Queen of the Orcs series.
 
I got the impression there were a lot of Noble Savage Orcs out there, particularly in gaming

Good point. They were in Warcraft, and perhaps in D&D if I remember rightly. I suppose it's the logical way to go if you're not going to argue that they're just plain evil. It does mean that you need someone else to be disposable villains, I guess. Or you could just use evil humans, which probably gets us back to the beginning again!
 
Good point. They were in Warcraft, and perhaps in D&D if I remember rightly. I suppose it's the logical way to go if you're not going to argue that they're just plain evil. It does mean that you need someone else to be disposable villains, I guess. Or you could just use evil humans, which probably gets us back to the beginning again!

Eldar Scrolls would be my prime example. I think both Warcraft and Eldar Scrolls have demonic creatures from beyond, but also try and move away from disposable villains.
 
(Of course I might be overthinking; I also considered how more realistic Anakin & Padme’s relationship would’ve been if she’d reacted to his ‘I’m going to save you’ mentality as a bit ‘oo I married a stalker’ and begin to reject him, precipitating his fall.)

pH

I think he won her over with the line: "I don't like sand. It's coarse and rough and irritating and it gets everywhere."

Oh gawd, so Romantic. I'm tearing up as I write this...:cry:
 
There are a few reasons they are re-used over and over:

1) Inspiration. You'll often notice that major books will spark a surge in a type of tropes that will last for a fairly long period of time. This is because that major work likely inspired a major proportion of soon-to-be writers. Some very powerful works can inspire other powerful works so you can get a chain that continues the pattern. Orks, Elves etc.. would be one such situation whereby their continued use promotes their continued use.

2) Publisher choices. Publishers choose what gets published and even though we live in a time when self publishing is a viable alternative; there is still the influence of the publishing houses and what they choose. As such they might well cause patterns in what does and doesn't get chosen to be published and might well often follow patterns already established by best sellers. This in turn will influence writers keen to be traditionally published in what they aim to choose to put into their books.

3) It cuts down on world building/info dumping. If I say oak, elm, blacksmith, pub, castle etc... those terms evoke images in the mind of the average reader. If they don't then, as real world things, any reader can quickly get a rough idea of what they look like with a tiny bit of research (ergo very low effort). Thus they are terms which the writer can put into the story without having to flesh them out every time; or at least know that they don't have to flesh out every tiny detail because the reader will be able to fill in the gaps.
Orks and elves are like that; they are terms that already have a casual meaning and thus the writer can put an elf into their story confident that they don't so much have to explain what an elf is; but that all they have to do is show how their elves differ to other elves. By saying elf your average reader already knows it basically looks like a human; has pointy ears; has very fine and classic beautiful facial features; is likely "at one with nature" (or at least more so than man); is probably very very long lived etc...

Fantasy and sci-fi both have reasons to bloat their stories more than contemporary novels, with world building. So anything that helps cut down the bulk of world building is going to be a good thing as it helps avoid the reader getting lost in a sea of detail and losing the story.

4) Mythology. A lot of fantasy traces its roots to mythologies and since a large majority of western (english) fantasy is often based upon western mythologies (And very often upon Tolkiens interpretation of them); it stands to reason that we see the same mythological creatures reappearing over and over.

I would say that in more recent years there's been a subtle push toward including other mythologies. India and China are both popular choices as is Native American. However there are ripe mythologies in Africa, India and even if you look at Europe there's huge variations over the spread of countries. Often as note these elements are explored alongside traditional western mythologies - often as not when a book seeks to take itself into a series and starts to explore the greater world within the book and this the world setting.



Zombies/Nazis are slightly different in their reason for being almost abusively used; especially so in films/TV. This is because not only are they a very simplistic concept that everyone understands very quickly; but they are also natural enemies. They are instantly hated/feared/loathed etc.. and thus easy fodder to be shot, maimed, gutted, melted, abused etc... without risk of alienating the majority of the audience. They are thus a nice and safe evil to throw into films without worries. Hence why they get used and re-used over and over again.
Of course inspiration and other elements also come into play as well; the vast numbers of wartime films produced in the war and post-war period made the Nazis a huge inspiration as the great-enemy for many writers and directors and thus spawns its own continued re-use.
 
There's really not much to say about orcs, by definition: they're just thuggish, stupid people and have no redeeming qualities* (cue the inevitable "Ah, but if you'd read The Silmarillion" comments that always appear in discussions involving Tolkien). Dwarves...

Thinking about it, there does seem to be a movement in the trope (if we take Tolkien as the granddaddy of it all.)

His orcs were, I believe, unredeemably evil, cannon fodder and a bit one dimensional (IMO - I admit that I haven't read the Silmarilion. But have listened and read quite a lot of stuff from people who have.)

In a lot of current works, in many genres, as been pointed out, many varieties of Orcs come across as a more rounded and complex.

As for Dwarves, didn't they start out as Middle Earth's Jews? I wonder when the trope shifted them to having Scottish ancestry*? It's a weird appropriation 'cause I can't think of much old Scottish lore on dwarves - I think of them more as Germanic entities.

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* It's the mean Scot, hording their gold, meme, innit? :D
 
I don't think they're over-done...but I think they can be done badly, in so far as no effort is made to develop them in a remotely fresh way.

I've tried to mix things up a bit in my efforts. I've got elves (D'raishiva), orcs (Bard'eth Vaan) and dragons (Raizgor and Nalagor), but have attempted to twist them somewhat, to being something new to the party.

Whether I've succeeded or not is another story...
 

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