The Age Of The Battlecruiser

Foxbat

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Been reading the forty year history of this class of ship and it makes for interesting reading.

Admiral Jacky Fisher came up with the concept and referred to them as his glorious cats (probably because a couple of them were called Lion and Tiger).

The idea was to build a class of ship that could roam the oceans and destroy enemy cruisers at will. They were meant to protect the sealanes for British Merchant ships. They were not meant to be used in conjunction with battleships.

They had to be faster than a normal cruiser and also be able to outgun them. The three points of the triangle for warships are guns, armour and speed. To increase one leads to a need to decrease another. In this case, armour was sacrificed for speed.

There were some early critics who fretted over the fact that having guns on a par with the battleships of the day would lead them to be used as battleships and they were right. What made it worse was their vulnerability to long-range fire. Normally, you'd think that the longer the range, the less effective the weapon but with naval gunfire, a longer ranges means a steeper descent (plunging fire). This left the least armoured parts of the battlecruiser open to attack (turret tops, decking etc.).

One of the theories on the destruction of HMS Hood (with only three survivors) was that a shell penetrated the decking or one of the turrets and hit one of the magazines. Hood is also a perfect example of the flaw - a battlecruiser up against a battleship (Bismark). The problem for the Royal Navy was that very few of their big ships could match Bismark's speed. Hood was one of the few but lacked sufficient armour to take on such a beast.

And yet, if they had been used as designed, they should have been the great naval predators - the great white sharks of any navy - that Fisher meant them to be. But there was one flaw in the design that could not be engineered out and that was human nature. If it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck, it must be a duck. If it looks like a battleship and fires like a battleship, it must be a battleship...except when it's a lighter armoured battlecruiser.

And yet, the heroic fascination surrounding this failed concept exists even today. Anybody that's read Jack Campbell's The Lost Fleet will know (at least in the first three books that I've read) that it's the battlecruiser that is the star of the show...and all this from an ex-navy man!

So there we have it - the battlecruiser fighting against overwhelming odds, struggling against a greater foe and succumbing in heroic fashion to inevitable defeat....sounds a bit like the whole of Scottish history:(
 
Foxbat said:
Anybody that's read Jack Campbell's The Lost Fleet will know (at least in the first three books that I've read) that it's the battlecruiser that is the star of the show

Same with David Weber - there are several passages in the 'Honor Harrington' series where he eulogises the speed and power of the battlecruiser as the epitome of the Manticore style of battle.

For an example of BCs used correctly, there's the Battle of the Falkland Islands - Wikipedia
 
Same with David Weber - there are several passages in the 'Honor Harrington' series where he eulogises the speed and power of the battlecruiser as the epitome of the Manticore style of battle.

For an example of BCs used correctly, there's the Battle of the Falkland Islands - Wikipedia
Yes. Just read an account of the Falklands and Coronel battles.

It's also probably worth keeping in mind that the Royal Navy was in a unique position. The policy at the time was for a two-fleet navy...meaning that the RN should always be greater than the next two biggest fleets combined.

But that didn't solve the problem of empire. In the case of the German navy, the vast majority was stationed and ready to emerge at any time in the North Sea. Because of the British Empire and the need to protect merchant shipping, it meant a greater dispersal of RN ships throughout the world. This made it much more difficult to concentrate a fleet large enough to counter the German threat despite the fact that the RN was the larger of the two. When you take this into account and then consider these large, long range predators either singly or in very small groups, roaming the sea lanes, freeing up other ships for fleet concentration, you begin to understand where the thinking behind battlecruisers actually came from.
 
Honor Harrington's only fleet defeat came from a massive fleet of battlecruisers. (But search me if I remember which book it came in. One of the middle books, Honor Among Enemies?)
 
Went looking for some David Weber literature because of this thread and managed to get the first two Honor Harrington books on Amazon for free for my kindle:)
 
Just some further thoughts on the UK battlecruisers. They were first built in 1908 and most served in WW1. Three, however remained to serve in WW2. These were Renown, Repulse and Hood. In 1936, Renown was subjected to a major refit where her engines, armour, gunnery and anti-aircraft capabilities were significantly upgraded. The cost of this upgrade was only £30000 short of the cost of her initial build. Renown was, effectively, a new ship. Unfortunately, neither Hood nor Repulse were given these upgrades and I wonder how history might have differed if they had.

Would Hood have survived the pummelling from Bismark and would Repulse (if it had been given substantially more and better anti-aircraft gunnery) have survived the onslaught from Japanese land-based aircraft that sent her and Prince Of Wales to the ocean depths?

The answers, of course, are that they probably wouldn't have made a difference. Hood, like many British ships of the time, often ignored safety precautions during battle - leaving open doors leading to the magazines and storing extra cordite charges (for fast use) within the turrets, and this may be a reason for such a terrible explosion. The Japanese air attack would probably still have overwhelmed both the capital ships of Force Z but perhaps Repulse might have taken a few more of the enemy with her. Don't think there's much of a possibility of alternate history here:(
 
Went looking for some David Weber literature because of this thread and managed to get the first two Honor Harrington books on Amazon for free for my kindle:)
Excellent - that's exactly how I got started. I now have 52 Weber books on the Kindle, plus a pre-order for Uncompromising Honor, due out in October, so be prepared...
 
Went looking for some David Weber literature because of this thread and managed to get the first two Honor Harrington books on Amazon for free for my kindle:)

Ah! to have On Basilisk Station and For the Honor of the Queen ready to read and never have read them. I am so jealous!!

@pyan ... fifty-two Weber books?! I don't think I have many over 30 and I thought I had about all of them (Hm, maybe a few more fantasy books that I remember, because I don't have any of them.)
 
Just some further thoughts on the UK battlecruisers. They were first built in 1908 and most served in WW1

And both sides used them without taking into account their fragility when facing heavy guns. At Jutland (1916), Scheer sent them on the notorious "Death Ride" to cover his battleship squadrons withdrawal, with desperate results for SMS Lützow, von Hipper's flagship, while Beatty, the admiral in charge of the British battlecruisers, was too far in front of the main fleet and lost Queen Mary, Indefatigable and Invincible in short order.

Fascinating battle, Jutland, a textbook example of Murphy's Law in action. Personally, I wouldn't have let Beatty command the Gosport Ferry...

Battle of Jutland - Wikipedia
 
Ah! to have On Basilisk Station and For the Honor of the Queen ready to read and never have read them. I am so jealous!!

@pyan ... fifty-two Weber books?! I don't think I have many over 30 and I thought I had about all of them (Hm, maybe a few more fantasy books that I remember, because I don't have any of them.)

33 Manticore books, 4 Dahaks, 6 War Gods, 9 Safeholds.... And I'm not counting the collaborations, which adds 4 Empire of Man (with John Ringo) and 2 1623s (with Eric Flint)....:D
 
Parson will go home later today and take inventory. But I suspect I have underestimated. I believe I have all 33? Manticore books I know I have 9 Safeholds (grumpily by the last couple) and 4 Dahaks, no War Gods. So..... 46 I guess. ---- Parson suddenly remembers moving and throwing away (please no one shoot me) almost all his paperbacks, so 46 will be the best guess!
 
And both sides used them without taking into account their fragility when facing heavy guns. At Jutland (1916), Scheer sent them on the notorious "Death Ride" to cover his battleship squadrons withdrawal, with desperate results for SMS Lützow, von Hipper's flagship, while Beatty, the admiral in charge of the British battlecruisers, was too far in front of the main fleet and lost Queen Mary, Indefatigable and Invincible in short order.

Fascinating battle, Jutland, a textbook example of Murphy's Law in action. Personally, I wouldn't have let Beatty command the Gosport Ferry...

Battle of Jutland - Wikipedia

I have read nothing so idiotic as reading that the Brit's sailed off for the battle with masses of ordinance and powder for the main guns stacked in the ships corridors. And if that was not bad enough, gun crews regularly left turret doors open, extra cordite charges stacked in and outside the turrets and they would leave magazine doors open. It beggars belief that Parliment did'nt hand the General Staff their own heads on a platter for allowing that type of idiocy.
 
And both sides used them without taking into account their fragility when facing heavy guns. At Jutland (1916), Scheer sent them on the notorious "Death Ride" to cover his battleship squadrons withdrawal, with desperate results for SMS Lützow, von Hipper's flagship, while Beatty, the admiral in charge of the British battlecruisers, was too far in front of the main fleet and lost Queen Mary, Indefatigable and Invincible in short order.

Fascinating battle, Jutland, a textbook example of Murphy's Law in action. Personally, I wouldn't have let Beatty command the Gosport Ferry...

Battle of Jutland - Wikipedia
So very true...and yet...the fragility had been known about from the very start when they were first built in 1908. Here's a quote from Brassey's Naval Annual of the time..

Vessels of this enormous size and cost are unsuitable for many of the duties of cruisers, but an even stronger objection is that an admiral, having 'Invincibles' in his fleet will be certain to put them in line of battle, where their comparatively light protection will be a disadvantage and their speed of no value...

A case of Nelson putting a telescope to his blind eye methinks.
 
Yet Fisher was absolutely clear on the purpose of the BC - heavy enough guns to destroy anything smaller, fast enough to run away from anything bigger. It was the admirals who couldn’t resist putting them in the line of battle, where their lack of armour proved disastrous.
 
Yes. Like so many things in military history, they made sense when used as they were designed to be used, but the military decided to use them for something else.
 
Just some further thoughts on the UK battlecruisers. They were first built in 1908 and most served in WW1. Three, however remained to serve in WW2. These were Renown, Repulse and Hood. In 1936, Renown was subjected to a major refit where her engines, armour, gunnery and anti-aircraft capabilities were significantly upgraded. The cost of this upgrade was only £30000 short of the cost of her initial build. Renown was, effectively, a new ship. Unfortunately, neither Hood nor Repulse were given these upgrades and I wonder how history might have differed if they had.

Would Hood have survived the pummelling from Bismark and would Repulse (if it had been given substantially more and better anti-aircraft gunnery) have survived the onslaught from Japanese land-based aircraft that sent her and Prince Of Wales to the ocean depths?

The answers, of course, are that they probably wouldn't have made a difference. Hood, like many British ships of the time, often ignored safety precautions during battle - leaving open doors leading to the magazines and storing extra cordite charges (for fast use) within the turrets, and this may be a reason for such a terrible explosion. The Japanese air attack would probably still have overwhelmed both the capital ships of Force Z but perhaps Repulse might have taken a few more of the enemy with her. Don't think there's much of a possibility of alternate history here:(


talking of Hood era alternate history - I do wonder what would have happened had the Germans not lost:

Bismark
Graf Spee

and had used the Tirpitz properly too.

2 major ships and one reasonably large one would not have changed the course of the war, I do wonder the inpact they would have had?
 
2 major ships and one reasonably large one would not have changed the course of the war, I do wonder the inpact they would have had?

As I understand it, Churchill wasn't afraid of those ships taking on the Royal Navy, because they weren't capable of doing so: as history proved, all they could do was sink a few of the older British ships before they were sunk themselves. The big fear was that they'd attack convoys, which they could utterly destroy at little risk to themselves.

I'd say they could certainly have changed the course of the war if they'd been able to operate for months in the Atlantic and dramatically reduce the supplies reaching Britain from abroad.
 
Yes. Like so many things in military history, they made sense when used as they were designed to be used, but the military decided to use them for something else.
But that's what military's do, they experiment. If they did'nt then we would not have C-130 gunships (Spooky)or Fighter aircraft that hover (F-35).
They are constantly using equipment or tactics in nonstandard ways to find what works. What is unfortunate is that when the use or tactic fails, men die.
 
In my opinion, the real problem that faced Britain was not facing up to capital ships with other capital ships but the problem of having to divert destroyers away from convoy duties to protect the big guns from submarine attack. The British would have just hunted down Bismark et al relentlessly(they had weight of numbers) but the real threat in the Atlantic was the U Boat and any destroyer diverted to help deal with a surface ship was one less to protect merchants.
 
But that's what military's do, they experiment. If they did'nt then we would not have C-130 gunships (Spooky)or Fighter aircraft that hover (F-35).

There's a difference between sticking a big gun in a cargo aircraft that's facing a few guerillas with AK47s and RPGs who are a minimal threat, and sending a big, expensive, lightly-armoured ship to fight battleships that can destroy it with one hit. One is sensible, the other is, if I can use a technical term... stupid.
 
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