Info dumping vs Narration and background setting

[IntoTheBlack]

Hi There,

I have been writing away and everything is going to plan. However when looking back over the document, which is still in its infancy at present. I feel I am dropping a lot of information on the reader. This said it’s a sci-fi novel, so it’s not going to be info light. The characters are still finding their feet. The galaxy is complex, so information to me at this point is flavoring and therefore required.

My question is this, is narration and background setting allowed? When does info dumping take their place and how to avoid?

IttB

 

[The Judge]

It rather depends how and when you give the information. A first page full of detail of the complex galaxy is going to be less welcome than if the same info is given several chapters later when the reader is ready for it and wanting to know more. Bald description dumped on the page by the author is going to be less well received than something written in the voice of the POV characters no matter where it is.

As and when you get to 30 counted posts you could put up a short extract of your work in Critiques, and see what others think. Meanwhile, have a look at recent threads there yourself and see how other members have dealt with the same problem, and how their work has been received. Also have a look at The Toolbox, where there are at least two long posts about info-dumping which might be of interest. (I’m on an iPad for reasons beyond my control, so I can’t copy and paste the link to The Toolbox as I usually would, but it’s stickied at the top of General Writing Discussion, so is easily accessible.)

 

[Ihe]

The galaxy is complex, so information to me at this point is flavoring and therefore required.

With "at this point" do you mean in the first few chapters?

On flavouring, I will say from personal experience, that anytime a beginner writer has said something along the lines of "adding flavour" or "making things interesting", I've found that they usually don't have enough meaningful action/dialogue/characterization to carry the story at that particular point in the book, and therefore feel the need to "spice up" the narration with background info. This is almost always the wrong approach and it rarely works, IMO. World-building at the beginning of a book should be purely functional. Any other purpose for it is probably wrong at that point in the story. Also keep in mind that info-dumping is rarely "required", as you've said. Background info, to me, is technically "required" only when the plot would not be able to move forward without it. If your plot in the first chapter cannot move forward without info-dumps, there might be a problem somewhere else. I find info-dumps are never the solution to ANY writing issue, unless it has to do with pace or is VERY relevant to plot.
I like that you at least suspect you might be adding unnecessarily to the word count. There are many who cannot get past this first hump! I struggled with this same problem for a looong time--sometimes I still do. It's just a matter of racking up experience. As you write write and read, the regression to averages should naturally kick in with your info-dumping.
I hope I was of some help.
Keep at it!

 

[Biskit]

You've done your world building, you know how it all works, but as your reader, do I really, really need to know? Just tell me the story. Perhaps even set out to tell me the story without telling me about the world, other than by the story itself. (OK, that's probably stretching it, but...) Seriously, though, the story is more important than the complexity of your galaxy (even though that complexity presumably influences the plot), and that complexity is best explored and revealed by your characters.

A very common technique (and one I'm fond of myself) is the ignorant character - newbie in the job/just arrived in a new galaxy/has been misled about the way things are. It gives you someone to follow and explore with, with minimal need for background explanation.

 

[Brian G Turner]

However when looking back over the document, which is still in its infancy at present

I think it's probably a normal part of the writing process to include too much information early in the writing. However, this is something you can look to trim back in later drafts, as once you have a finished story you can get a better idea of which areas are looking more bloated than others, and smooth them out accordingly.

 

[The Big Peat]

Narration, background setting, exposition... yes, it is all allowed. And encouraged, when in its rightful place.

Its rightful place is when readers want to know. In an ideal world, something interesting happens, you put in some exposition on what happened. Sometimes you need to explain things first and can't set things up naturally and that's okay as long as it doesn't happen too often.

I'd also add that so much depends on how you present it. Some of the best scenes in fantasy are exposition scenes because they're told in beautiful, engaging ways (and also because they answer questions about the world in a way that gives us great satisfaction). A lot of the worst scenes in fantasy are exposition scenes too.


As for how much you should include... I feel like a heretic here, but that's up to the author. As long as it doesn't clog up the story due to excessive use, or get boring, go hog wild. I've seen too many SFF fans nerding out over this or that from the setting, read too many books that feel a bit like an RPG supplement, and am too much of a sucker for a deep interesting world to say otherwise. You won't please everyone that way but you were never going to anyway.

The more you use though, the harder it is to use it right.


IntoTheBlack, are there any authors you particularly admire for the world building in their books?

 

[Venusian Broon]

Occasionally "info-dumping" works. Because what it's saying is fascinating and enthralling and it fits in with the rest of the novel.

And sometimes the complexity of the world is just as important as the story. Or to put it another way, there will be a requirement to get enough world-building across to the reader so that they can understand the actions of the characters, because you've come up with an ingenious and full world that defies simply pasting character plot lines into a world that is not a exotic version of the current day or some other historical era.

Also some genres or styles are more biased to 'flavour'. Because what do you know...some people like it that way.

However, I do believe achieving a bit more of info-dump/world-building/flavour approach satisfactorily can be difficult. Getting an equal focus on the basics - character, plot and (basic) settings is a good start. At least till your more confident in your writing and your experience.

Then again, a lot of commercial writer's that I've sampled, who state they focus on character, do produce IMHO quite a lot of bland 'meh'. So there's going too far the other way.

Your best bet, I feel, is to write it as you feel comfortable right now or as you re-draft, then see what beta readers, who are well read in your genre and will give you an honest opinion, think.

 

[Penny]

I think the big mistake I found I had with my writing was that when I was info dumping. the information tended to break out of context, it became no longer relevant to current events and would go on tangents that were unrelated or simply drag on for too much time.

Iv'e been having a look at how others do it as well as trying some of my own ideas and I have settled on 1-2 chunks of info dump per page maximum, and I try to keep it relevant to the situation and personal to the character in question.
So I might say for example.

Red = Flavor/info Blue = character development + flavor Green = Character actions (drive the story)

Beth entered the tube train, she had always disliked the dirty cramped things. She especially disliked the smell, the air filters must never be cleaned as they always smelt of sweat and urine. Carefully she made her way through the standing room only car to a space near the end. Gripping the sticky ceiling railing she waited for it to depart.

So in that, I have broken up the infodump by having my character move and making it more personally relevant to her situation. It packs in a fair amount of information but still remains relevant, I dispense with describing its size, shape, interior features, windows, who is there or anything like that because it is unnecessary. I could have said who she stood next to or made other comments but they are not needed.

Keep it short, keep it relevant
I'm no pro or anything, I just find this way seems to work for my style.

 

[sknox]

>The galaxy is complex, so information to me at this point is flavoring and therefore required.

The galaxy in which we all live is complex, but that doesn't mean you have to explain what's happening over near Spica in order to write a detective mystery. Or even to write an Earth-based science fiction story. The complexity of the galaxy really is immaterial.

It is all to easy to think "the reader needs to know this in order to understand the story" when what is really going on is, "the reader needs to know this in order to understand the story in the way I the author understand it." The reader not only doesn't need to know that, the reader needs to be spared that.

 

[Shorewalker]

I don't mind info-dumps, if done well, as to me, they add to the experience/flavour. Maybe I just need to know how and why things work? Who knows?

The key, though, is doing them well. I'm prone to too much verbiage and am trying to get a grip of myself. Sometimes I try to get limited information across as reverie, strictly related to the action that is going on at that point in time. If a thief has been discovered and is now hiding beneath a stairwell, him recalling his very first disastrous job is quite natural...but you have to paint it with broad brushstrokes and not get bogged down with minutiae.

The other mistake is flying off at tangents, or making the info-dump tenuously relevant. If your POV character is riding hell for leather, they might remember their first pony, but them thinking about how they had been indoctrinated into a cult is jarring.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

Finish your first draft, then worry about it

 

[IntoTheBlack]

Hello,


Thank you for all the replies, once again with writing there seems to be mixed views

I was considering having a chapter dedicated to narration, not the first chapter. Possibly the second. To say I am having second thoughts is an understatement. I do think it would work well, especially if the first chapter is based on action and hooks. After that go for scene setting then characters. Either way its not as striaghtfoward as I thought as I have a lot of information that I want the reader to know.

Do you think it’s best to pepper information around the chapters as to why and what is going on as opposed to having one whole chapter dedicated to it?

IttB

 

[Penny]

imo scatter it and use it where it can be used to develop your character, give thier view or opinion while they think about how the ships engine need more repairs.

a whole chapter of infodump... >.> waow I don't even know what that would look like.

If you are having trouble describing your world because everyone in your story lives in it and wouldnt take the time to think about why a ships engine is the way it is or whatever.
consider adding somebody new, someone who can ask questions it's a cheaty way of getting some info dump that is also in character and can be told straight up through dialog

 

[IntoTheBlack]

Perhaps the bigger problem is I see the story like a film, and I always enjoy a little bit of a setup narration (such as the start of Dune). It keeps playing in my head and the more I write it down the more I feel for it and the more questions I start to ask, sadly other stories come to light so trying to focus on one for now.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

Only put info in that’s needed (we don’t need to know all your world intricacies). Only put it in when it’s needed (so it’s a no here to a chapter of info - I’d put the book down for sure).

 

[The Judge]

Do you think it’s best to pepper information around the chapters as to why and what is going on as opposed to having one whole chapter dedicated to it?

Most definitely. People might have different tolerances for exposition, but a whole second chapter of it is likely to put 99% of readers off, no matter how well written.

I really don’t think, too, that you should be separating out action, exposition, scene-setting and character as you appear to suggest — from what you’ve said it seems you think they ought to happen sequentially and possibly in separate chapters. Instead, all four should appear together in each chapter to greater or lesser extents, and to my mind character is by far the most important of them. That is what you should concentrate on — showing character even in action (showing character through action), and providing narrative/world-building and scene-setting within the character experience.

 

[IntoTheBlack]

I see what you’re saying, for me it’s a struggle to have characters on a mining/scrapping vessel explain to each other the history of a galaxy. Perhaps I’m the problem here as I like to have things laid out as to why, maybe most readers like the mystery of the world/galaxy to unfold around them a piece at a time Leaving their imagination in charge and I don’t have to fill every nook and cranny.

 

[Toby Frost]

it’s a struggle to have characters on a mining/scrapping vessel explain to each other the history of a galaxy.

If it's not necessary for them to do so for the plot of this particular story, then I wouldn't have them doing this at all. It's a bit like two soldiers taking up position on the battlefield, at which point one says to the other "Remind me how this war started, Bob." It feels forced.

Generally, I suspect that the exact details of what's clearly a space empire or a medieval European fantasy land or any other fairly recognisable setting don't tend to matter to the reader as much as they do to the writer. Often it's just enough to show that these guys are space Vikings or the like, rather than to explain how the galaxy ended up being run by Scandinavian raiding spaceships. The mock-history-book bits can go into the companion guide for the TV show!

 

[IntoTheBlack]

Space Vikings I like that

I agree with you as knowing several welders they rarely talk about history and more about their families, interests and of course beer. When it comes to what they do they are experts. Interesting thing is, people with no background seem to want to tell them how to do their job. To their credit they listen and then do it the way it should be done.

 

[sknox]

What Jo said. As long as you talk theory, you will get every answer and every rebuttal, all convincingly presented. And none of it will matter a whit. The only thing that matters is what you actually write.

Go with the way that feels right. Get some eyes on it. If you get a chorus of boos, be open to changing it. What we do is much like what a standup comedian does, only much, much slower.