Info dumping vs Narration and background setting

[Marks]

An occasional info-dump is okay, as long as they don't go on for pages and pages. But the best way to convey information to the reader is the way the masters do it: Teach the reader by teaching a character. Have a character learn the information so that you as the storyteller can reveal it to the reader. The critical thing here is that the character learning it absolutely cannot know the info already. Nothing makes me roll my eyes faster in a story than when one character tells another, "As you know..."

By the way, the best "how to" guide for writing I have ever found is A.B. Guthrie's Handbook: A Field Guide to Writing Fiction. There are lots of great books out there on things like plotting, characterization, dialogue, theme, setting etc. But when you get to the point where you're asking yourself, "Okay, how do I get the words on the page?" You won't find a better book that Guthrie's.

I think it is out of print, but if you can find a copy, don't pass it up.

A Field Guide to Writing Fiction by A.B. Guthrie Jr.

 

[Penny]

It sounds like you are confusing world building with writing your story. I have a wiki layout on my computer where I put down world building info, I describe how the world got where it is. How money works, how various technologies work and how they look.
I also go into some of the information about the different companies that create various products used by the characters in the story. All of that stuff is for my own benefit. What i have in my world document informs my writing about the world, when I come up with something interesting or end up off on a tangent I cut it out of the story and it ends up in the wiki instead.

If i mention something like "slab" offhandedly as an alchoholic beverage, I actually have a wiki page for myself with a little bit of info about it for future reference and possible explanation if i feel its necessary.

If you write in a very slap it down and explain things kind of way you might benefit from something like this, it helps you keep the world straight in your mind but still keeps the story relevant to the characters as none of your developmental stuff ends up in the actual story.

The other advantage of a world document is that it keeps things consistent, it helps you write within the world instead of about it.

 

[Shorewalker]

In the very best books, you learn about the world through osmosis. References are made but unexplained, but they are returned to and other blanks are filled in. Bit by bit, the reader gets a sense of the whole.

You, the writer, need to know it all from the start, so that the drip-drip-drip is informed, but the reader only needs enough to get them through each scene. However, that drip-drip-drip will finally fill a bath.

 

[sknox]

Info dumping is not a useful phrase. There is description. Description done well is memorable. Description done badly has acquired the name of info-dump. In fact, people use the phrase for description they do not like, regardless of whether it's done well or poorly. The value judgment is fine. What one pleases one person displeases another.

The mistake comes in believing info-dumping is a thing, sui generis. It isn't, at least not as far as the writer is concerned. It's not a thing that we as authors need to avoid. What we need to avoid is bad writing.

Do you want to go on for pages describing a city and its architecture and politics? Have at it. But do it well. Do it memorably. Write it well. It's exactly as simple and impossible as that.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

I disagree that info dumping is description (if that’s what you meant above, @sknox?) It can be, but it mostly isn’t.

Description is the placement of the story - what we see, what we hear, how people look. It can be dumped in rather than fed - and then it becomes an info dump.

Info dumping is, put simply, (imho) the introduction of information in such a way it pulls a reader out of the story. A single paragraph can do that (but the reader will mostly keep going) or a large tranche of info.

And it can be anything: description; world building; mythology; character exposition; ‘you know, Dave; tech.

The key is whether you pull the reader out of the story or not. Learning how not to takes time (and editing!)

 

[Toby Frost]

Infodumping is, to my mind, a specific form of bad description, namely an attempt to prime the reader with information in an awkward way. It's basically saying "To read this story, you must first soak up this background information", which, as Jo says, is jarring and unenjoyable. I think this is especially true when the infodump contains no well-defined characters (it doesn't count just to give important figures their own names) or dialogue. As a rule of thumb, I think it is wise to assume that readers are slightly less interested in the background of your setting than you are.

 

[sknox]

Bad writing, awkward writing, jarring, unenjoyable ... I ought to have been more general than calling it "description." The point I was trying to drive at is that "info dump" as a phrase is not especially useful, since it's really just another way to say "bad."

If my editor marked a passage with the words "info dump," what am I supposed to do with that? What she's really saying is, this is awkward, jarring, unenjoyable ... bad. That's a reaction but it's not a criticism. I'd like to see the term consigned to the dust bin, forcing people to be more specific and descriptive in their critique.

 

[HareBrain]

If my editor marked a passage with the words "info dump," what am I supposed to do with that?

Look for background information you've inserted in a clumsy manner. 99% of the time, it'll be obvious on reflection (often, in my experience, because I've known it was there but hoped to get away with it). I think it's a pretty useful term myself, and in any case, I don't think I've ever seen anyone just say "info-dump" in a critique without being more specific.

 

[AnyaKimlin]

I wrote my first story in first person present tense. It means I can only introduce the elements my MC interacts with. We only ever understand the world as he does.

Galaxies are complicated but we can live in them without needing to understand them.

 

[tinkerdan]

It has taken me a while but now days if I ask myself this question I suddenly realize I don't need an editor--I need a therapist.

If my editor marked a passage with the words "info dump," what am I supposed to do with that? What she's really saying is, this is awkward, jarring, unenjoyable ... bad. That's a reaction but it's not a criticism. I'd like to see the term consigned to the dust bin, forcing people to be more specific and descriptive in their critique.

What I mean by that is that every note the editor gives I consider as a red marker. Any red marker is something that draws my attention to the spot so that I can analyze what the real problem is. And there is a real problem, because making my editor stop long enough to write anything at all means that it has slowed their process down to have to stop and point this out and it means that there is a huge potential for the reader to be pulled out of the story at this point if I can't fix it.

They are not trying to say that info dump is generally bad; they are saying 'this info dump is so bad it sticks out and I tripped over and fell on my face and now I have a bloody nose--and it's your fault'.

However if I do come across something(in the edits)that I just can't see what the point is; I've come to find that a polite question to the editor nudges just enough information to begin to unfold the problem.

Bad info dump is usually good information that's been either placed in the wrong spot or presented in such a way as to sound like it's in the wrong spot.

A recent experience was a piece I wrote that had an editor's brackets around some info dump and I spent a moment trying to figure out how I might smooth it out, but mostly noted it and read on to find another set of brackets two pages later. At that point I was shaking my head until I read the passage and realized it was a repeat--in different words--of the previous.

I had edited this myself umpteen times and probably had the sense that I'd read this once and then dismissed it because--well, I'd edited it so many times I was just remembering the last edit. It took that second set of eyes to catch that and even though they forgot to note that it was a repetition, I was able to pinpoint it easily enough and later thank them for drawing my attention to it.

 

[Cathbad]

The worse "Info Dump" of all tie occurred in theaters showing the original DUNE movie.

When you walked in, they handed you a "cheat sheet" with pertinent explanations.

 

[Venusian Broon]

The worse "Info Dump" of all tie occurred in theaters showing the original DUNE movie.

When you walked in, they handed you a "cheat sheet" with pertinent explanations.

Have you seen the movie version of Dune that had the backstory of the Butlerian Jihad explained using drawn slides? Taking at least (from memory) a good couple of minutes before we get to the princess introducing the main story.

I have it on DVD somewhere...

 

[Cathbad]

Have you seen the movie version of Dune that had the backstory of the Butlerian Jihad explained using drawn slides? Taking at least (from memory) a good couple of minutes before we get to the princess introducing the main story.

I have it on DVD somewhere...

They should have Peter Jackson remake it.

Even worse with the original movie, was all the characters talking to themselves!!

 

[Heijan Xavier]

They are not trying to say that info dump is generally bad; they are saying 'this info dump is so bad it sticks out and I tripped over and fell on my face and now I have a bloody nose--and it's your fault'.

Poor thing, you must have broken a few bones, critiquing my work.

Good to see even seasoned veterans are also having problems with their dumps. I love Jeff Vandermeer, but I guess he's quite the dumper too. I found myself not even reading some of his multi-page, character developing flashbacks. But when you're that popular you can dump whatever you want and wherever you want, the reader be damned.

As a novice writer, having just received a healthy dose of truth in the critiques forum, I realize I am like a pig wallowing in my own dumps. I thought I was writing a novel, but once I stop dumping where I'm supposed to be writing, it will probably be a novella along with an anthology of background info. A novella is probably a better first publication for an upstart anyway. My question is procedural in nature though.

If a writer just loves a good dump, or a lot of them, should they just forge ahead with the rough draft (dumps and all) and deconstruct later? Or should they revise as they go, not getting too far ahead without moving the dumps to their appropriate location?

Also, should you let the reader know where to find the additional information? (appendix, website, different publication etc.)

 

[Heijan Xavier]

The worse "Info Dump" of all tie occurred in theaters showing the original DUNE movie.

When you walked in, they handed you a "cheat sheet" with pertinent explanations.

Some people have weird fetishes. Some people just like to get dumped on, and lots of people just eat it up.

 

[sknox]

Your question applies to every aspect of writing, not merely to description. Edit as you go? Write without looking back? The answer to both question is: yes. You will find what works best for you. You'll do this by finding what works worst for you, then doing it differently until you either find what is best for you, or you just give up and work with what is good enough for you.

I started with a novella. That was unintentional (it was supposed to be a short story!), but it was very much worth doing. I decided pretty early on that it would be a learning exercise--not merely for the process of writing but also for publishing. It was also where I tried out different writing software. I put it up for sale on Amazon, sold zero, and now it's my freebie for signing up for my mailing list.

I think it is healthy to decide you're going to write a bunch of stories, so the first one doesn't have to be great, doesn't have to sell a ton. It only need to be the best you can do at the time. It's your first time at bat. It's okay if you strike out. But it's also okay to swing for the fences.

 

[thaddeus6th]

For a blog, I decided to try something new and get five or six samples from books selected from Amazon's bestseller/new releases list. Only on the second one right now, but it's interesting to observe how info-dumping and trying to establish the world quickly is done. May end up writing another blog, just on that.

 

[sknox]

For a blog, I decided to try something new and get five or six samples from books selected from Amazon's bestseller/new releases list. Only on the second one right now, but it's interesting to observe how info-dumping and trying to establish the world quickly is done. May end up writing another blog, just on that.

This. More and more I'm finding it more helpful to talk about *this* story or *that* story than it is to talk about Story. When talking of theoreticals, pretty much every view is right for someone and wrong for someone else.

 

[Brian G Turner]

This is one reason why I made a point to read bestsellers, regardless of genre: 5 years of New York Times No.1 best sellers