I hadn't seen that one before, Py. They were also collected into one "de luxe" boxed hardback volume, Poems and Stories, along with Smith of Wootton Major, Leaf by Niggle, etc.
Re-reading The Lord of the Rings: chapter by chapter
- Thread starter Brian G Turner
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When you consider how long the LOTR movies are (esp the extended editions) and all of the extra superfluous material that has been added, it's not a case of not being able to fit him in. But the Scourging of the Shire is the greatest omission from the film adaptation, as it misses the whole point of the story. The climax is the bitter sweet realisation that Middle Earth is no longer what it was , and neither are the returning companions.
At first, it seemed slow and somewhat tedious. I read it before I did 'The Hobbit'. Then, during the Bombadil segment, it clicked and I became an enthusiast. I was on a bus from eastern Arkansas to west Texas, and it was a time killer. That year, I was working for my grandfather and using the money to buy science fiction and fantasy books and magazines. I thought LOTR might be similar to 'The Castle of Iron, 'The Broken Sword, and 'Adept's Gambit', which I had read earlier. It wasn't, but that's OK.
In the mid to late 50s, fantasy and science fiction were not as popular as they became in later years, and adults would make fun of me for reading this stuff. That changed in the 60s.
As an aside, I thought at the time that Tolkien could have made LOTR a lot shorter by just having Frodo give the Ring to Bombadil
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There seem to be a lot more actioned packed series these days, like Game Of Thrones. LOTR is a much more laid back journey (in many parts). I can see the slower pace putting people off who have read other stuff, but back when I first read it (about 30-40 years ago) there wasn't much (anything?) to compare it to. Also the films, whilst I think they have done justice to the look of the characters and the landscapes and bastions, seem to be somewhat lacking in relation to the books. I have to be honest, if I'd watched Jackson's films I probably wouldn't have read the books afterwards.
On the other hand I only picked up the Game Of Thrones books after watching the tv series. The tv series was great up until the last 2-3 series when it absolutely bottomed out. The books I have read so far (part way through number 4 now) are even better than the first few series were , and (unlike tv) I have high hopes for the conclusion.
On the other hand I only picked up the Game Of Thrones books after watching the tv series. The tv series was great up until the last 2-3 series when it absolutely bottomed out. The books I have read so far (part way through number 4 now) are even better than the first few series were , and (unlike tv) I have high hopes for the conclusion.
I hate to be the one to break this to you, but this was started in 2012...
The Winds of Winter publishing date guesses?
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Well there were 17 years between The Hobbit and The Fellowship of the Ring, hopefully he's not on the same timetable as Tolkein!
Matteo
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The recent posts in this thread popped up on the right and I read through to this point. It reminded me of the two books I had as a kid (in a 'box set') and so I popped up to the attic and found I still had them! Will be re-reading them now.
Boaz
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Somehow I've never read this thread before. I have a number of thoughts... and these are my opinions... I'll try to give reference when I can, but these are my opinions.
First, I've never read Moorcock, but Tolkien's fellowship is light on common folk. Gandalf is an angel. Strider is the uncrowned king of two countries. Legolas is the son of the Elven King of Greenwood/Mirkwood. Boromir is the eldest son of the ruling steward of Gondor (he also holds the highest rank in their military). Merry is the eldest son and heir of the Master of Buckland. Pippin is the eldest son and heir of the Thain of the Shire. Gimli is the son of Gloin, whose great grandfather was King Nain II. Frodo is related to both the Tooks and the Brandybucks (the two leading families of the Shire) and is, as previously mentioned in this thread, landed gentry. Sam is the only one not of noble birth.
So birth and nobility may seem important on the surface, but do not forget that it is Sam the Assistant Gardener, not General Boromir, not King Aragorn, not Prince Legolas, not Baron Gimli, not Sir Meriadoc, not Squire Pippin, nor even Gandalf the Maia who defeats Shelob, bears the Ring, rescues Frodo, starves himself, carries Frodo to Mount Doom, and helps save Middle-earth. Birth qualified all of the Fellowship, but not Sam. Birth actually disqualified him. What qualified Sam was his work ethic, his focus, his level of detail, and his commitment to the cause. In all these areas he surpassed them all, well, except maybe for Gandalf and Aragorn.
It may be noted that Frodo calls Sam his servant and that Sam calls Frodo his master. But when Aragorn announced them to the assembled armies he said, "Praise them with great praise!" And Sam was counted as a ringbearer and awarded a place on a ship to Aman.
Do you recall the medal ceremony in Star Wars? Han gets awarded first, then Luke. Chewbacca did not get a medal. He stood behind and lower on the dais than Han. Of course this was done to fit Peter Mayhew into the shot, but Chewbacca shared every danger that Han did. Come on, it's time to end Wookie prejudice.
Back to Sam... the result of Sam qualifying himself (further by routing the ruffians and healing the Shire with Galadriel's gift) is that he is named Frodo's heir and that he is elected Mayor of Michel Delving (i.e. the entire Shire) and then named by Elessar as a Councillor of Arnor.
Earlier in the thread, I believe @Luiglin used the word species to denote the divisions of humans. I don't think this is quite accurate. We do not label Ethiopians and Estonians as separate species. We are one species with different traits. Tolkien not only includes physical differences but operational differences as well. In The Silmarillion, we learn of the divisions of the Elves. All Elves are enamored of starlight and of the workings of the world. But the Vanyar seek wisdom and enjoy the company of the Valar (the wisest of Eru's creations), while the Noldor love knowledge and crafting new designs, and the Teleri desire the peace of the flora and fauna of Middle-earth and they delight in the sound of running water which is in their latent longing to be close to the sea. In Tolkien's accounts of the arrival of elves, groups of them awoke together... fully grown. These groups, I assume were homogenous in physical appearance and operational desires. The Vanyar, Noldor, and Teleri quickly found each other, but quickly recognized their specializations. I asssume that men were created much the same.
Again in The Silmarillion, we learn of three kindred of humans. Together these are called the Edain, but they thought of themselves as distinct tribes. Easterlings are also mentioned in two tribes in The Silmarillion. In The Lord of the Rings, many references are made to other kindreds, Easterling, Southrons, Haradrim (a southron-Numenorean mix), men of the White Mountains, Dunlendings, men of Bree-land, Beornings, and the Rohirrim. We are not told of the operational specializations of all of any people before their contact with elves (and by extension the Valar). It is this contact that sets the Edain on their path of operational specialization... fight evil, act justly, show mercy to the less fortunate, honor the Eldar, and revere the Valar. In doing these, the Edain were blessed by the Eldar with knowledge of craftsmanship, language, and friendship... and blessed by the Valar with longer life, a fruitful land, visions, and contentment. After the Edain became the Dunedain, many of them joined evil, acted unjustly, became merciless, denounced the Eldar, and worshipped Melkor. This disqualified them from the blessings. The descendants of those who kept their operational specialization became the men of Gondor and Arnor, i.e. Aragorn, Denethor, Imrahil, etc. Gandalf lamented to Pippin something about how the blood of Numenor ran true in Denethor and Faramir but not in Boromir. Even when it ran true, it was still up to the individual to choose justice, mercy, and hope (as Faramir did) over greed, expediency, and despair (as Denethor did).
When Faramir broke bread with Frodo and Sam, he first turned to the west and showed his reverence for the Valar. Sam was unaccustomed to this and felt "rustic"... yet it felt right to him. I really think Sam is the example of a man not educated nor bred to a higher standard, but finds them for himself. He refused to measure himself by Ted Sandyman and he refused to be daunted by Strider. He clung to his own operational specialization, his own ethics, his code that allowed him to renounce the temptation of Samwise the Strong and yet still be a hero for the ages.
To paraphrase Forrest Gump, nobility is as nobility does. I think that Tolkien recognized the impact that the decisions that one generation makes can have earth shaking consequences for later generations. The men of the White Mountains dwindled and died out after their forefathers proved faithless to Isildur, while the Dunedain of Gondor continued to thrive after utterly rejecting Sauron.
Now if this all smacks of racism to you, then so be it. As for me, it echoes the cultural attributes to which I aspire... ethics, commitment to family, faithfulness, knowledge of craft, justice and mercy... and the cultural values that I hold equality, meritocracy, honor. Which probably sounds like manifest destiny. Personally, my ethinc make up is one quarter Chinese, one eighth Welsh, one eighth Swedish, but mostly English and Scottish... my first name is Brittonic, my middle name is Hebrew and my family name is Latin... the first of my ancestors to come to the U.S. came from France. My mother was born in China. I grew up on English and Chinese nursery rhymes. I am captivated by the histories of the Kingdom of Israel and the Roman Republic. I can get by speaking Mandarin, but am not fluent... and I am illiterate in Chinese. I've studied German, Spanish, and French, and can actually read Latin more easily than Mandarin.
Maybe it's the age into which I was born, but I don't feel Tolkien's works are racist. Sometimes we unintentionally insult each other. For instance, I used to run the activities for Taiwanese high school students doing a summer English camp in the U.S. Once I overheard a student, speaking in Mandarin, referring to me and other counselors as foreigners. The Mandarin word can be translated as "outside country people" or "people from beyond our borders" which is fine, if we'd been in a Mandarin speaking country. My student did not mean to insult me, to her the word only meant non-Chinese, not foreigner.
Sometimes we look for insults where none are intended. In the last twenty years, it has become fashionable among Asian-American students to find the word oriental insulting. I've been told it is analogous to African-Americans being called the N word. That's hogwash. It merely refers to geography. If I cared to... I could find words to insult Asian-Americans that are actually analogous to the N word.
Is Middle-earth as inclusive as I'd like it to be? No. The best case of inclusivity occurs when Faramir is betrothed to Arwen. She's a foreigner... although she's one quarter Gondorian and may be a third cousin to Faramir's uncle Imrahil....
I wanted to make other comments, but I've taken enough space just for this...
First, I've never read Moorcock, but Tolkien's fellowship is light on common folk. Gandalf is an angel. Strider is the uncrowned king of two countries. Legolas is the son of the Elven King of Greenwood/Mirkwood. Boromir is the eldest son of the ruling steward of Gondor (he also holds the highest rank in their military). Merry is the eldest son and heir of the Master of Buckland. Pippin is the eldest son and heir of the Thain of the Shire. Gimli is the son of Gloin, whose great grandfather was King Nain II. Frodo is related to both the Tooks and the Brandybucks (the two leading families of the Shire) and is, as previously mentioned in this thread, landed gentry. Sam is the only one not of noble birth.
So birth and nobility may seem important on the surface, but do not forget that it is Sam the Assistant Gardener, not General Boromir, not King Aragorn, not Prince Legolas, not Baron Gimli, not Sir Meriadoc, not Squire Pippin, nor even Gandalf the Maia who defeats Shelob, bears the Ring, rescues Frodo, starves himself, carries Frodo to Mount Doom, and helps save Middle-earth. Birth qualified all of the Fellowship, but not Sam. Birth actually disqualified him. What qualified Sam was his work ethic, his focus, his level of detail, and his commitment to the cause. In all these areas he surpassed them all, well, except maybe for Gandalf and Aragorn.
It may be noted that Frodo calls Sam his servant and that Sam calls Frodo his master. But when Aragorn announced them to the assembled armies he said, "Praise them with great praise!" And Sam was counted as a ringbearer and awarded a place on a ship to Aman.
Do you recall the medal ceremony in Star Wars? Han gets awarded first, then Luke. Chewbacca did not get a medal. He stood behind and lower on the dais than Han. Of course this was done to fit Peter Mayhew into the shot, but Chewbacca shared every danger that Han did. Come on, it's time to end Wookie prejudice.
Back to Sam... the result of Sam qualifying himself (further by routing the ruffians and healing the Shire with Galadriel's gift) is that he is named Frodo's heir and that he is elected Mayor of Michel Delving (i.e. the entire Shire) and then named by Elessar as a Councillor of Arnor.
Earlier in the thread, I believe @Luiglin used the word species to denote the divisions of humans. I don't think this is quite accurate. We do not label Ethiopians and Estonians as separate species. We are one species with different traits. Tolkien not only includes physical differences but operational differences as well. In The Silmarillion, we learn of the divisions of the Elves. All Elves are enamored of starlight and of the workings of the world. But the Vanyar seek wisdom and enjoy the company of the Valar (the wisest of Eru's creations), while the Noldor love knowledge and crafting new designs, and the Teleri desire the peace of the flora and fauna of Middle-earth and they delight in the sound of running water which is in their latent longing to be close to the sea. In Tolkien's accounts of the arrival of elves, groups of them awoke together... fully grown. These groups, I assume were homogenous in physical appearance and operational desires. The Vanyar, Noldor, and Teleri quickly found each other, but quickly recognized their specializations. I asssume that men were created much the same.
Again in The Silmarillion, we learn of three kindred of humans. Together these are called the Edain, but they thought of themselves as distinct tribes. Easterlings are also mentioned in two tribes in The Silmarillion. In The Lord of the Rings, many references are made to other kindreds, Easterling, Southrons, Haradrim (a southron-Numenorean mix), men of the White Mountains, Dunlendings, men of Bree-land, Beornings, and the Rohirrim. We are not told of the operational specializations of all of any people before their contact with elves (and by extension the Valar). It is this contact that sets the Edain on their path of operational specialization... fight evil, act justly, show mercy to the less fortunate, honor the Eldar, and revere the Valar. In doing these, the Edain were blessed by the Eldar with knowledge of craftsmanship, language, and friendship... and blessed by the Valar with longer life, a fruitful land, visions, and contentment. After the Edain became the Dunedain, many of them joined evil, acted unjustly, became merciless, denounced the Eldar, and worshipped Melkor. This disqualified them from the blessings. The descendants of those who kept their operational specialization became the men of Gondor and Arnor, i.e. Aragorn, Denethor, Imrahil, etc. Gandalf lamented to Pippin something about how the blood of Numenor ran true in Denethor and Faramir but not in Boromir. Even when it ran true, it was still up to the individual to choose justice, mercy, and hope (as Faramir did) over greed, expediency, and despair (as Denethor did).
When Faramir broke bread with Frodo and Sam, he first turned to the west and showed his reverence for the Valar. Sam was unaccustomed to this and felt "rustic"... yet it felt right to him. I really think Sam is the example of a man not educated nor bred to a higher standard, but finds them for himself. He refused to measure himself by Ted Sandyman and he refused to be daunted by Strider. He clung to his own operational specialization, his own ethics, his code that allowed him to renounce the temptation of Samwise the Strong and yet still be a hero for the ages.
To paraphrase Forrest Gump, nobility is as nobility does. I think that Tolkien recognized the impact that the decisions that one generation makes can have earth shaking consequences for later generations. The men of the White Mountains dwindled and died out after their forefathers proved faithless to Isildur, while the Dunedain of Gondor continued to thrive after utterly rejecting Sauron.
Now if this all smacks of racism to you, then so be it. As for me, it echoes the cultural attributes to which I aspire... ethics, commitment to family, faithfulness, knowledge of craft, justice and mercy... and the cultural values that I hold equality, meritocracy, honor. Which probably sounds like manifest destiny. Personally, my ethinc make up is one quarter Chinese, one eighth Welsh, one eighth Swedish, but mostly English and Scottish... my first name is Brittonic, my middle name is Hebrew and my family name is Latin... the first of my ancestors to come to the U.S. came from France. My mother was born in China. I grew up on English and Chinese nursery rhymes. I am captivated by the histories of the Kingdom of Israel and the Roman Republic. I can get by speaking Mandarin, but am not fluent... and I am illiterate in Chinese. I've studied German, Spanish, and French, and can actually read Latin more easily than Mandarin.
Maybe it's the age into which I was born, but I don't feel Tolkien's works are racist. Sometimes we unintentionally insult each other. For instance, I used to run the activities for Taiwanese high school students doing a summer English camp in the U.S. Once I overheard a student, speaking in Mandarin, referring to me and other counselors as foreigners. The Mandarin word can be translated as "outside country people" or "people from beyond our borders" which is fine, if we'd been in a Mandarin speaking country. My student did not mean to insult me, to her the word only meant non-Chinese, not foreigner.
Sometimes we look for insults where none are intended. In the last twenty years, it has become fashionable among Asian-American students to find the word oriental insulting. I've been told it is analogous to African-Americans being called the N word. That's hogwash. It merely refers to geography. If I cared to... I could find words to insult Asian-Americans that are actually analogous to the N word.
Is Middle-earth as inclusive as I'd like it to be? No. The best case of inclusivity occurs when Faramir is betrothed to Arwen. She's a foreigner... although she's one quarter Gondorian and may be a third cousin to Faramir's uncle Imrahil....
I wanted to make other comments, but I've taken enough space just for this...
Last edited:
Boaz
Happy Easter!
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@Brian G Turner Thank you very much for sharing your observations and feelings of reading through The Lord of the Rings. It is a gift to be given a view into another's mind.
I wanted to comment more, but I feel that I've sufficiently derailed this thread with my previous post.
I wanted to comment more, but I feel that I've sufficiently derailed this thread with my previous post.
Extollager
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Boaz, I've scanned and "liked" your recent message, but could you amend this statement, which includes a slip?
---Faramir is betrothed to Arwen----
---Faramir is betrothed to Arwen----
Extollager
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Yeah, Boaz, after an hour or so the edit button disappears. Well, we've all been there.
Extollager
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There’ve been times I lived there.
Overread
Searching for a flower
The only solution is to take a slice of humble pie and crawl cap in hand to beg the powers that be for a favour. Or accost a passing moderator and coerce them into aiding you through bribery.
I read the book after seeing the films and enjoyed both (although I must admit that I could have done without both Tom Bombadil and the poems/songs in the book, and I was less than happy with the film's lead up to the encounter with Shelob). Before both films and book, I'd heard the (26-part) BBC radio adaptation with Stephen Oliver's songs (which I could also have done without).
I had no problems with the book's prose style. As I've said elsewhere on the Chrons (don't ask me where, because I have no idea), the style reminds me (rightly or wrongly**) of short stories for children (either fantasies or set in the distant past) that I read in books such as the Newnes Golden Treasury and Arthur Mee's The Children's Encyclopedia.
,
** - I haven't compared the styles; indeed, the resemblance may be purely an artefact of my memory... but still, Tolkein's prose did seem familiar and not "difficult" at all.
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Matteo
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Well...that was a delight. I've just finished reading The Little Grey Men and The Little Grey Men Go Down the Bright Stream. Looking at the publication date of my copies it's almost 40 years since I first did that - though they received more than one reading. Reading them in the garden with the sun shining through the cherry tree and the wisteria, listening to the birds sing (and hopefully not the two kids screaming next door...) was the closest I could come to the perfect setting and it was a lovely read. The first is the stronger of the two but by no means is the second weak.
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