What is literary fiction?

[Onyx]

I thought this was an interesting factoid:

The Sympathizer — a literary thriller about a Vietnamese double agent who moves to Los Angeles after the Vietnam war — is the first novel (or at least the first I can unearth) that’s won both a major literary award and a major genre award in the same year.

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Arguably, literary fiction is such that is well written while meticulously avoiding the hallmarks of any genre, or at least does something to break the genre (a mystery that doesn't get solved, Gravity's Rainbow, genre used for allegory's sake only).

 

[ZlodeyVolk]

Cool!

 

[RJM Corbet]

Anything Irish and up its own arse. Apparently

I’m being tongue in cheek - a little. But Irish literature often has a literary fiction - which is a focus on word usuage and selection.

Perhaps you would include James Joyce Ulysses? I enjoyed 'Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man', when I was young myself. But I have always had Ulysses on my bookshelf, and try as I might to appreciate the verbal artistry, it puts me to sleep every time, lol ...

 

[Jo Zebedee]

Perhaps you would include James Joyce Ulysses? I enjoyed 'Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man', when I was young myself. But I have always had Ulysses on my bookshelf, and try as I might to appreciate the verbal artistry, it puts me to sleep every time, lol ...

Yes, Joyce, very much so. But actually the core of Iridh fiction tends to be literary: Beckett, Synge, Flann O’Brien all fall under the literary umbrella. More modern writers like Glenn Patterson, David Park, Bernie McGill continue it.

There are a couple of reasons for this:

In ROI (Ireland) tax breaks for writers are high. Something like 10% tax. You’ll all know when I’ve made it when I hightail off to live in Donegal.

In both ROI and NI (the complicated part of the island ) there is funding for writers - and that funding focuses on Irish-led work. So, for instance, I got some money to allow research time into a book set in Donegal, pulling on Irish mythology. A different application for an ambitious fantasy project didn’t get funded. (So we all know what kind of book I’ll be submitting next time...)

That Donegal book, currently unsold (it’s doing the agent rounds), has provided me more clear profit than anything else I’ve written.

That funding environment does tend to shore up the poetry and literary fiction genres (my word, the number of poets here is astonishing!) as it seeks to promote great works of Irish literature over commercial appeal. (This is all my take on it, btw; the arts councils might say something very different!) obviously when the two dovetail (with the likes of Donal McIntyre, or the Belfast Noir genre) all the better.

So, yeah - if you want to write literary stuff, being Irish is no bad thing. And it’s probably why - apart from my sf - I lean more and more to that end. I grew up on Irish poetry and literature. I holidayed as a teen in Yeats-land, one memorable summer. I attend, when I can, a summer school focused on the Irish literary scene.

I then developed a love for science fiction and that’s how I ended up with my confused portfolio of Irish-led sff that’s either pacy and fun, and mostly read by people outside Ireland, and more literary Irish fantasy stuff (mostly around description/sense of place since the stories are still pretty pacy) that is mostly read in Ireland.

I need a literary therapist to unpick it all

 

[ZlodeyVolk]

More grist for the mill:

According to Wikipedia (your one-stop shop for everything worth knowing; what's the BB code for *sarcasm*?), Neal Stephenson has suggested that literary authors, nowadays, are frequently supported by patronage, with employment at a university or a similar institution, and with the continuation of such positions determined not by book sales but by critical acclaim from established literary authors and critics. In contrast, he further suggests, genre fiction writers tend to support themselves by book sales.

So I guess Neal Stephenson doesn't much like literary fiction or those who write it.

The same Wikipedia article went on, to characterise literary fiction thusly:

• a concern with social commentary, political criticism, or reflection on the human condition.
• a focus on "introspective, in-depth character studies" of "interesting, complex and developed" characters, whose "inner stories" drive the plot, with detailed motivations to elicit "emotional involvement" in the reader.
• a character-centric work (here in a pejorative sense) and, even, portraiture at the expense of any substantive plot. (Toby Frost might agree with this, if I recollect rightly.)
• a slower pace than popular fiction [allowing itself] to linger on stray beauties even at the risk of losing its way".
• a concern with the style and complexity of the writing.

Seems like nobody likes literary fiction!

 

[Jo Zebedee]

But sf is a mirror - there is no reason those literary themes can’t (and don’t) be supported in genre. I’d class Jeff Vandermeer as fairly literary, and C S Lewis’s sf definitely falls under literary. I actually wonder why so little sf is produced here where we need that reflective mirror more than anywhere - perhaps if is that there is a perception that the two genres don’t mix.

Take heart though! We are expecting an explosion of Northern Irish sf (we are gaining more visibility here and more support partly due to a current generation emerging) and I can say the quality is impressive and the themes a broad range and suitably challenging

 

[Onyx]

I don't see how those descriptions are necessarily negative.

 

[ZlodeyVolk]

I suppose they're not, in and of themselves. But I noted the inclusion of the phrase 'here in a pejorative sense' to qualify the concept of 'character-centric work'. You must admit, that one comes off as negative. Either that, or I'm confused about the meaning of pejorative. (Which is a possibility.)

 

[Toby Frost]

Me neither: they seem neutral to me.

I think Toby Frost once defined it as: "Not much happens to characters you don't care about."

Ouch - I had no idea I was so bitchy! That said, there's probably a element of truth to my bitter ravings...

I agree with HareBrain's list, although I'd add a fourth and fifth: "Generally does not have a neat or happy ending" and "May use unusual or experimental techniques". I think HB's list works best for books written after 1900 or so: there wasn't much distinction before then. Sometimes, thought, a book is literary fiction just because a writer with a certain reputation has written it.

Neal Stephenson has suggested that literary authors, nowadays, are frequently supported by patronage, with employment at a university or a similar institution

That's interesting, because if I was asked to write a caricature of a modern literary novel, it would be about a college professor who has a crisis in which he rages against materialism whilst having a lot of sex with girls a third of his age, whom he despises as vapid. I'm not even sure who that's a parody of, but for some reason the idea has become stuck in my mind.

 

[ZlodeyVolk]

Sounds like you know one of the lecturers I had, back in the 'nineties.

 

[RJM Corbet]

Yes, Joyce, very much so. But actually the core of Iridh fiction tends to be literary: Beckett, Synge, Flann O’Brien all fall under the literary umbrella. More modern writers like Glenn Patterson, David Park, Bernie McGill continue it.

There are a couple of reasons for this:

In ROI (Ireland) tax breaks for writers are high. Something like 10% tax. You’ll all know when I’ve made it when I hightail off to live in Donegal.

In both ROI and NI (the complicated part of the island ) there is funding for writers - and that funding focuses on Irish-led work. So, for instance, I got some money to allow research time into a book set in Donegal, pulling on Irish mythology. A different application for an ambitious fantasy project didn’t get funded. (So we all know what kind of book I’ll be submitting next time...)

That Donegal book, currently unsold (it’s doing the agent rounds), has provided me more clear profit than anything else I’ve written.

That funding environment does tend to shore up the poetry and literary fiction genres (my word, the number of poets here is astonishing!) as it seeks to promote great works of Irish literature over commercial appeal. (This is all my take on it, btw; the arts councils might say something very different!) obviously when the two dovetail (with the likes of Donal McIntyre, or the Belfast Noir genre) all the better.

So, yeah - if you want to write literary stuff, being Irish is no bad thing. And it’s probably why - apart from my sf - I lean more and more to that end. I grew up on Irish poetry and literature. I holidayed as a teen in Yeats-land, one memorable summer. I attend, when I can, a summer school focused on the Irish literary scene.

I then developed a love for science fiction and that’s how I ended up with my confused portfolio of Irish-led sff that’s either pacy and fun, and mostly read by people outside Ireland, and more literary Irish fantasy stuff (mostly around description/sense of place since the stories are still pretty pacy) that is mostly read in Ireland.

I need a literary therapist to unpick it all

Wonderful! Wishing you great success with your work. It's amazing how much creativity comes out of Ireland: literature and music both. My grandfather was born in Wicklow but moved to England. His father was MP for Wicklow. So that may be why my own (unpublished) writing seems to lean towards the poetic ...

 

[Onyx]

I suppose they're not, in and of themselves. But I noted the inclusion of the phrase 'here in a pejorative sense' to qualify the concept of 'character-centric work'. You must admit, that one comes off as negative. Either that, or I'm confused about the meaning of pejorative. (Which is a possibility.)

What is character-centric in a pejorative sense? It does come off as negative, but you wrote it and we don't understand what you meant by it.

 

[ZlodeyVolk]

I didn't write it; I quoted it from Wikipedia.

 

[Onyx]

I didn't write it; I quoted it from Wikipedia.

Ah. It looked like your quote from WIkipedia included Toby Frost's opinion. Hence my confusion.

 

[ZlodeyVolk]

My bad.

 

[Brian G Turner]

It looked like your quote from WIkipedia included Toby Frost's opinion.

Toby Frost isn't allowed in Wikipedia.

 

[Toby Frost]

This is true. I lower the tone.

 

[Joshua Jones]

This is true. I lower the tone.

I know it; how dare you replace the banal, surface level treatment of subjects with careful and articulate considerations? We all go to Wikipedia for the train wrecks, not actual information! You need to repent...

 

[RJM Corbet]

I know it; how dare you replace the banal, surface level treatment of subjects with careful and articulate considerations? We all go to Wikipedia for the train wrecks, not actual information! You need to repent...

Well, I don't know. Wiki is an enormously valuable resource, with reference notes for deeper research. The problem with Wiki may less be in its depth of information about virtually anything on earth, but it's veracity. I do think it's mostly true and accurate, and errors are quite quickly picked-up and corrected?

At least this thread has persuaded me to try and soldier on with 'Ulysses'. I took it on the bus and read a few pages on from where I last left off.

'... Houses of decay, mine, his and all. You told the Clongowes gentry you had an uncle a judge and an uncle a general in the army. Come out of them, Stephen. Beauty is not there. Nor in the stagnant bay of Marsh's library where you read the fading prophecies of Joachim Abbas. For Whom? The hundredheaded rabble of the cathedral close. A hater of his kind ran from them to the wood of madness, his mane foaming in the moon, his eyeballs stars. Houyhnhnm, horsenostrilled. The oval equine faces. Temple, Buck Milligan, Foxy Campbell ...'

Page thirty seven. Six-hundred-and-forty-five still to go. Give Joyce his due: it is wonderful use of language?

 

[Jo Zebedee]

Buy a companion guide - apparently it’s the only way to make sense of it.